How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

When you were young and your heart was an open book.
You used to say live and let live.
You know you did you know you did you know you did.
But in this ever changing world in which we live in.
Makes you give in and cry.
Say live and let die.
 

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Now how sure are you of this? Because I'm willing to bet you I can design a completely reasonable door that a 1st-level rogue can open that a wizard with a knock spell cannot.

Interesting. I suppose the door, instead of having a lock would be opened like some trap (thereby making pick locks and knock useless but disable device perfectly workable). If that's the case though, why wouldn't the designer also wizard lock the door (or hire a 3rd level wizard to do so) as this would (by 3.5 rules) make the door impossible for the rogue too (short of breaking it down).

Both Pathfinder and 4e have an easy solution here: knock requires an arcana check to beat the DC of the lock (and arcane lock imposes a DC as opposed to being non-pickable), meaning a 3rd level wizard isn't suddenly a better lockpicker than a 20th level rogue.
 

Pick lock might fail, Knock does not), and that's what I find unfair.
You know what I find unfair?

That a fighter can use a shield and a sword and have multiple attacks in a single round of combat and have a higher BAB that the wizard.

Wizards do not get this. They can only use a dagger and only get one attack per round.

For the sake of balance, a Wizard should get the same BAB as a fighter and the same number of attacks with their melee weapons. And a wizard should be able to use a shield and sword, just like a fighter does.

It'll make things far more balanced.

/sarcasm

However, that's only about combat. I'd like to have some out of combat goodies too. For example, something named "lift bars" that automatically open/breaks a door (just like Knock does) might be nice, or something named "Awe" where they can use magnetic charisma to get a weaker "Charm person" or some kind of "sense the truth" that give him a weaker "zone of truth", or some "warrior's resolve" that allow them to briefly be inmune to mind compulsions (only a portion of what protection from evil does), or some "Find the path" equivalent for a Ranger, for example. I don't really see any reason for spellcasters (clerics in that case) to be better pathfinders than rangers (even if it's only once a day)

A few things, but the biggest one is this:

You do want the fighter to be the same as the wizard, you just want to rename the abilities. There are many items that a fighter can get that perfectly mimics these abilities you want. You might have to spend some gold for them, find them in a dungeon craw, or do a specific quest for them, but they already exist as equipment.

A fighter does have capabilities that do allow him to do things like bend bars and lift gates. In 3,5e all you have to do is make a Strength check against the DC of doing so. Plus, there's an ability called Sunder.

In fact, here's what the SRD says on breaking things:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm
 
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You know what I find unfair?

That a fighter can use a shield and a sword and have multiple attacks in a single round of combat.

Wizards do not get this. They can only use a dagger and only get one attack per round.

For the sake of balance, a Wizard should get the same BAB as a fighter and the same number of attacks with their melee weapons. And a wizard should be able to use a shield and sword, just like a fighter does.

It'll make things far more balanced.

/sarcasm

Incredibly flawed attempt. It's not the mechanics that have to be balanced, but the effects (in your example, defend themselves and do damage). A wizard does not have a shield, but have Shield (the spell), which protects them. And Mage armor, Blurr, Invisibility, Blink, Stoneskin and Mirror Image to add up. It does not have multiple attacks, but have damaging spells. If the total damage output is similar, it's balanced, the effect is the same. However, the wizard can fly. And teleport. And comune. And charm. And summon monster. Knock. Invisibility. Shapechange. Waterbreeze. Planeshift. And a lot of things that fighters can't do, or get near to do, with their own mechanics.
 
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What, generally, would you leave wizards able to do? From what I can tell from your example powers, everything is combat-oriented. (I'm not real clear on the summon, since you don't indicate what the outsider can do for you. I assume it can fight, if nothing else?)
With the outsider I was thinking on things like commune, create magic items for you, use spells that you dont have, etc.

Wizards could do a lot of things. Mainly related to magic. Including summoning, learning things (identify, contact other plane), protect from magic and magic beans (like protection from evil or nondectection), craft magic items, teleport (but not "without error"), that sort of stuff. Just that I don't think they should do ANYTHING. They should not be able to pick locks better than a rogue, shut doors better than a fighter, explore better than rangers.

So a wizard can turn an entire courtyard of gawkers to stone ... but he can't enthrall a single target. A wizard can deflect a spell ... but he can't magically unlock a door. A wizard can summon a celestial ... but he can't ask the celestial to scout ahead and "find the path" for him.
Exactly. They should do the wizard stuff, and not step into everyone else shoe. You don`t see Gandalf tracking or sneaking around, do you?

Is that about right? Wizards in your book can kill stuff real good? Kinda like fighters?
Do you notice that your sentence implies the only thing fighters can do is "kill stuff real good"? ;)

Now how sure are you of this? Because I'm willing to bet you I can design a completely reasonable door that a 1st-level rogue can open that a wizard with a knock spell cannot.

Which leads us to this is a job for Aquaman, and really address anything. I think rogues should be able to open *all* locks better than wizards, just like I think wizards should dispel *all* magic better than rogues. And not only just one single proxy lock built especifically so your impaired character can win a gold medal in paraolimpics too.
 

Incredibly flawed attempt.

Right. Because fighters should be able to do everything a wizard should do and not in reverse, anything else is unfair.

Might as well just have one class:

The SUPERCLASS


Where everybody has the exact same abilities because it's just too unfair to have different abilities and effects.

Football should be baseball, hockey, golf, soccer, and chess all rolled into one.

Because, really, that's what you're arguing for, regardless of how you try to hide it weasel words like unfair and unbalanced.
 

Double post with a double class.

Added: and you know what?

I never see this argument being used against the cleric. It's only the wizard.
 
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Right. Because fighters should be able to do everything a wizard should do and not in reverse, anything else is unfair.

Um, no. You've completely missed the point.

And the Cleric is just as bad as the Wizard, if not worse, at taking the Fighter's stuff, though generally not as good, I think, at taking the Rogue's stuff. "Wizard" is just convenient shorthand for "spellcaster."

As has already been mentioned several times.
 

I think one thing that makes the problem worse -as far as D&D goes- is the "5 minute work day." IMO, things are a little more balanced when the PCs need to be heroes at all times instead of only during a few encounters. One of the DMs I used to play with when I played 3.5 used villains who were more pro-active; attacking the party during rest hours happened. There were many times when the mighty wizard (or the cleric) were left with their fates in the hands of the party fighter.

This isn't to say I believe 3.5 was perfect; I fully agree it had a few problems, but I think some of the problems were made worse not by the system but by the way in which people played the system.


I also think that one of the issues is that novels/literature do not have levels. (D&D novels being the obvious exception.) This is actually one of the reasons I've started to enjoy games without levels; I've often made the comment to my friends that GURPS often feels more like a book whereas I feel that D&D 4E seems more like a movie. While I love movies, I appreciate the small details which books touch upon and the greater consistency that is possible in a book due to the more gradual pace. I feel like my character evolves in a more organic way instead of hitting a specific point and then BOOM! - I learn a new sword technique because I completed a completely unrelated skill challenge.

I still very much enjoy D&D. These are just things I've noticed as I've aged and gotten more experience with rpgs.
 

What if I want to play a game where magic isn't the deciding factor in every battle? D&D often sweeps these things under the carpet. As you say, the fantasy D&D castle would not look like a medieval castle.

But, what if I want more traditional fantasy? In D&D, as soon as you start scratching beneath the surface, you realize how poorly D&D does traditional fantasy, at least out of the box. Sure, you can start making all sorts of changes to the ruleset to make it do that, but, that's kinda the point. You have to radically alter a lot of the ruleset in order to do it.
Well, I think there is the alternative to AD&D (and probably 3E) which (in my view) Basic (but not Expert) adopted, and 4e has also adopted - which is to treat the sociology and demography of the gameworld as backdrop rather than as a game element that is to be used on a par with the rest of the game mechanics.

(Yes, I'm repeating myself from upthread. But I really feel that this is an underappreciated difference in the contribution that the gameworld makes to play!)

D&D, as it's presented is not this high magic, magic solves all game.

Looking at various settings - Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, etc. the settings are presented as medieval Europe with a veneer of magic layered on top. The problem comes when you scratch below the surface, it's not hard to start seeing some really glaring incongruities.

<snip>

Take something as simple as continual light/continual flame (depending on edition). Access to PERMANENT light sources would have an enormous impact on a setting. But, why do we have these spells? Well, because our adventurers go down into dungeons and carrying a sack full of torches is a PITA. So, we have Continual Light. Makes dungeon crawling that much easier. The broader effects of cheap, permanent magics are simply hand waved away.

<snip>

The magic system is dictating my setting. I can't ignore the issue if I want a believable setting.
I think believability in fantasy settings is grossly overrated. Tolkien's Middle Earth is not remotely believable. The Shire has material living standards comparable to 18th or early 19th century England, although the latter was a centre of world commerce and productiong and the former is a small, autarkic community. Gondor appears to have material living standards and economic power at least comparable to the major European kingdoms of the high mediaeval period, without any sort of comprable economic base. Where are the villages and towns that support Minas Tirith (they certainly don't seem to be passed through during the Ride of the Rohirrim)?

Exactly the same sorts of points can be made about REH's Hyborian Age, which is a self-conscious pastiche of various times and places intended solely to provide an evocative backdrop for the Conan stories.

I think there is nothing wrong with handwaving. In a game system which includes spells like Continual Light, all it needs is an understanding at the table that no one will push the boundaries that might make the handwaving fail to do its job. (Much like the understanding that no one will theorise too hard about the dungeon's ecology, or the Underdark's impossible economy - how is the Vault of the Drow richer than any surface city given its such economically umpromising geography? - or about where and how often their PCs go to the toilet.)

Once the game makes the setting another element in the game that the PCs are expected to use alongside (or as part of) the mechanics, then I agree that things change. This is part of why I'm not a big fan of domain-type rules, at least of the classic AD&D/Expert variety. They suddenly make sociology and economics matter to the game, bringing an end to the handwaving and encouraging players to break the gameworld in all the ways that you (Hussar) are talking about.
 

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