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Psionics - What system/approach to use?

A poorly played wizard is inferior to a well played psion. However, a well played wizard is generally held to be superior to a well played psion.

How well played was the wizard? Did he spend all of his time casting Fireball, or did he prefer Planar Binding and Magic Jar?


Yep, a well played wizard who did, in fact, have Planar Binding and Magic Jar!

A Sorcerer with the Energy Substitution feat and spells such as Orb of Fire, Acid Breath, and Melf's Unicorn Arrow is in roughly the same situation, and they're far from broken.

This would make a difference to our experience - we were SRD based, so no energy substitution feat, no orb of fire, acid breath or melfs unicorn arrow (don't really know what any of those do!)


Speaking of which, did your group enforce the "THOU SHALT NOT SPEND MORE POWER POINTS ON A POWER THAN THINE MANIFESTER LEVEL" commandment in the XPH? Because not knowing that rule leads to a lot of misconceptions about the power of psionics.

Sure did, it was all within the pp limits. The most problematic character was a metabolic(?) psion, who could buff his hit points to insane levels, take loads of damage and then unleash that untyped damage back on attackers with a touch attack (or something like that - it was several years ago). He also had lots of big damage ignoring SR powers, and things like the power that lets him explode doing masses of damage in a 40ft radius (which is huge on the battlemat)


There's actually a thread on Gleemax dedicated to debunking the belief that psionics is overpowered entitled "Myth: The XPH Is Overpowered". Quite the interesting read. They even address some of the the things you brought up, such as:

I'll take a look, thanks for the link.

Cheers
 

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Yep, a well played wizard who did, in fact, have Planar Binding and Magic Jar!
What did the wizard spend his time doing? If the metric for how powerful a character is is damage dealt, then a wizard who focuses on battlefield control or debuffing is obviously not going to match up, because that's just not his job! There's several ways to contribute to an encounter. One is dealing enough damage to destroy the enemy, but just as valid is possessing an enemy or crippling them to the point where they helplessly eat damage to the face.

I know that psions are better at dealing damage than wizards, but damage dealing with a core (or SRD) wizard isn't great. 1d6/level blasting damage isn't enough to keep up with monster HP, while the inability to swap energy types (unless you're an Archmage) means that there's a decent chance that some of your damage spells will be useless. At level 10, your best damage dealing spells in core are Scorching Ray, Fireball, Lightening Bolt, and Cone of Cold. The AoE deal 10d6 damage each, for an average of 35 damage. 35 damage, reflex save for half, is insufficient. Fortunately, you can empower Fireball so it deals 52.5 damage on average. A maximized Scorching Ray does 48 damage.

An CR 10 11 headed hydra has 118 HP, with fast healing 21. A monstrous scorpion has 150 hp. A Formian Myrmarch has 102 HP, but Fast healing 2, immunity to cold, resistance to electricity 10, fire 10, and sonic 10, spell resistance 25, all of which cuts down on a blaster's damage output. A noble salamander has 112 hp, immunity to fire, but vulnerability to cold.

It will take about 2-3 rounds to work through most of the monsters on this list with the aforementioned blasting spells.

Of course, you could just Magic Jar the hydra and force it to commit suicide. Charm the scorpion and make it your pet. Use Polymorph to turn the party's rogue into a 10 headed hydra so he can sneak attack ten times per round and brutally kill the Myrmarch. Same for the Noble Salamander; actually, it's worse off as it's armor class is low enough that most of the rogue's attacks hit for 1d10+5+5d6 each, and he has ten of them.

(Fireball and AoE damage spells do get better if you face large groups of enemies since you could clear a room quickly, though.)

Honestly, making blasting better is hardly breaking the game considering it was a little weak in the first place.

This would make a difference to our experience - we were SRD based, so no energy substitution feat, no orb of fire, acid breath or melfs unicorn arrow (don't really know what any of those do!)
Energy Substitution is an SRD feat. It's in the divine section.

Orb of Fire is a spell in the Orb series that includes Acid, Cold, Lightning, Sonic, and Force versions. They are touch attack, 1d6/level (max 15d6) damage ranged attack spells that ignore SR, offer no save vs damage, and have a status effect the target saves against.

Acid Breath is a cone spell that deals 1d6/level (max 10d6) of acid damage, ref save for half. It and the Orb series are the closest analogies I could find to the crystal shard powers that ignore SR.

Melf's Unicorn Arrow creates several projectiles, 1+ 1 every 3 caster levels above 5, to a maximum of 5 arrows. Each one deals 1d8+8 untyped damage, and bull rushes the target. The bullrush effect is stronger the more arrows hit an enemy. At level 17, it's dealing 5d8+50 damage, or 72.5 damage on average. No SR, no save. It's somewhat less suitable for metamagic abuse than the Orb series.

Sure did, it was all within the pp limits. The most problematic character was a metabolic(?) psion, who could buff his hit points to insane levels, take loads of damage and then unleash that untyped damage back on attackers with a touch attack (or something like that - it was several years ago). He also had lots of big damage ignoring SR powers, and things like the power that lets him explode doing masses of damage in a 40ft radius (which is huge on the battlemat)
Sounds pretty powerful. Here's the thing; arcane magic gets the ability to do that too.

Buff hit points? Lots of spells like False Life and Vampiric Touch add temp HP.
Take lots of damage? some spells like Greater Blink drastically increase your survivability.
Big damage, no SR spells? Covered above.
Damage in a 40 ft radius? Wail of the Banshee has that. Horrid Wilting has a 30 ft radius.
Retaliatory attack? It seems like you're talking about Forced Shared Pain. Not really unbalanced, as it's a Fort: negates. Anyways immediate retaliation is one of the uses for Celerity. Contingency does this as well.

Psionic powers are not generally unbalanced. Sometimes they're different from arcane magic, but that's not the same as broken. While several problems exist, the same could be said for arcane magic (even in core) so the conception that XPH psionics is fundamentally broken is, like my computer, unwarranted.
 
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Just FYI, but I'm the Bacris that wrote that thread all those years ago - and took some of those points into consideration when updating the XPH to Pathfinder as Psionics Unleashed.

For my CharOp cred, I was a regular on the old WotC CharOp forums and watched what could be done with Core-Only CoDZilla, casters using things like Rope Trick to bypass 4 encounters per day, and the like.

I've played moderate to fully optimized characters in 3.5 games for about 6 years now, and have found that while my psionic characters can throw a monkey wrench into the game, so can my wild shaping druid, or my archer cleric.

Hands down, the druid was the single most broken class I've ever played. It trivialized encounters the DM sent at us.

The only time psionics was an issue for us was when we initially used the Psionics as Different rule and my powers tore through enemy defenses. As soon as we switched to transparency, my power level was on par with the other characters (maybe a tad bit higher, because I tend not to pick roleplay-only, mechanically-inferior character options, and instead pick roleplay-supporting, mechanically useful character options compared to other people in my game). And the only time "nova" was an issue was when the DM didn't go by the encounter expectations of the system.

My experience may be anecdotal, but I like to think I've played enough different character types (kineticist, nomad, psychic warrior, druid, cleric, ranger, egoist, chirurgeon, and probably a few others I'm forgetting) among varying groups with varying DM styles to see a wide range of possible issues with the system as a whole. My finding is that when you use the system as it was designed to be used, it's fine. Change the way the game works (number of encounters per day, transparency rules, etc) and you get vastly different results.
 

Oh, and just a quick note - the much derided Pun-Pun used to show how psionics is broken?

Yeah, the "best" Pun-Pun wasn't even psionic. :) He used magic.
 

<obvious blah snipped>

Charm the scorpion and make it your pet.

As I said, a well played wizard - and one who knows that charming the scorpion is pointless because it is vermin and thus immune to mind controlling spells.

;)

BTW, false life is great for sorcerers especially (a must have spell for them IMO) and vampiric touch can be useful, but both pale before the mighty Hostile Empathic Transfer

Empathic Transfer, Hostile
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Telepath 3, psychic warrior 3
Display: Auditory and material
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 5

You transfer your hurt to another. When you manifest this power and then make a successful touch attack, you can transfer 50 points of damage (or less, if you choose) from yourself to the touched creature. You immediately regain hit points equal to the amount of damage you transfer.

You cannot use this power to gain hit points in excess of your full normal total. The transferred damage is empathic in nature, so powers and abilities the subject may have such as damage reduction and regeneration do not lessen or change this damage.

The damage transferred by this power has no type, so even if the subject has immunity to the type of damage you originally took, the transfer occurs normally and deals hit point damage to the subject.
Augment

You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways.

1. For every additional power point you spend, you can transfer an additional 10 points of damage (maximum 90 points per manifestation).
2. If you spend 6 additional power points, this power affects all creatures in a 20-foot-radius spread centered on you.

Regards
 

I treat all psionics as sorcerers.

This solves all my balance issues.

Any iconic powers missing from the spell list are converted to spells.
 

As I said, a well played wizard - and one who knows that charming the scorpion is pointless because it is vermin and thus immune to mind controlling spells.

;)

BTW, false life is great for sorcerers especially (a must have spell for them IMO) and vampiric touch can be useful, but both pale before the mighty Hostile Empathic Transfer

Regards

Sure, if you don't mind being a punching bag first. And if your enemy isn't immune to mind-affecting effects.

I mean, you can't use damage you've soaked up via Vigor to activate Hostile Empathic Transfer, since Temporary Hit Points don't work that way, and with a d4 HD, you're incredibly squishy... But hey, if you want to be a punching bag and then hurt your enemies, sure, that'll work, but it's dangerous unless you're having your allies damage you...
 

As I said, a well played wizard - and one who knows that charming the scorpion is pointless because it is vermin and thus immune to mind controlling spells.

;)
Sorry, it was late. Change it to "Charm Hydra, Magic Jar Scorpion" which makes more sense.

Empathetic Transfer's pretty good. Balanced in my opinion by the fact that 1) Lots of enemies are immune to Mind Affecting spells, 2) You have to be in close proximity to the enemy, whom you are about to massively piss off.

Compare to third level spells. Slow is a Will save (not mind affecting!) spell that cripples melee enemies by only allowing them a move or standard action per turn, on top of halving movement speed and lowering their reflex saves and AC slightly. Hold Person (Will save, mind affecting) paralyzes the enemy so that he can be coup de grace'd. Deep Slumber (Will save, mind affecting) put the enemy to sleep, with all the perils that entail dozing off in a battle. Of the two mind affecting spells, Hold Person scales much better with levels than Deep Slumber. It offers a save each round, which may be something of a weak point, but then again if a ranging barbarian power attacking with a greataxe (x3 crit) hit the target, there might not be anything left on the subsequent round.

Giving that Hostile Empathetic Transfer is a Will save vs damage spell that heals the user as opposed to a Will save or die spell that can be cast from afar, I wouldn't think of it as broken. Good, yes, but not broken.
 
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