How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[Votan]

RE: Boromir

So... he fails to persuade the circle, fails to persuade/Bluff Frodo, fails a couple of Will saves, then dies after killing a ridiculous number of orcs. Sounds like a fighter to me. He is nominally an "aristocrat," from a land where political acumen means fighting off weekly raids by wild riders. I don't see him do anything more than is suggested by a few ranks of cross-class skills, even if he were low-level--which he is not. Based on the body count, he had to be at least 6th level, possibly higher if you think he took a bad crit early in the fight.

I think it is challenging to model Lord of the Rings characters with 3E but I think that Fighter is a possibility for Boromir. The love of songs and lore seen in Gondor could add in a level of Bard, which would easily explain his leadership skills (and he even has a horn as an instrument). But a pure fighter would also be a reasonable interpretation.

Aragorn is much harder to decide on (and Gandalf is the source of many spirited discussions).

My real take on 3E fighters is that they work really well for mixing with other classes.

In some ways, the 3E fighter is a real break from the other editions as 1E/2E fighters explicitly get to be leaders (and, if you count the revenue raised per inhabitant in the 1E rulebooks as a guide, they are intermediate between clerics and wizards as rulers). In 4E, the fighter can easily take feats to handle any gaps (which is a good way to separate the pure martial fighter and the other types). Plus, 4E has other martial classes that don't cast spells (Ranger, Warlord) to further diversify the class.

 

[Banshee16]

Which is just silly. You dont need random encounters to keep players from going nova, all you need is to let them know that trying to rest without taking out the bad guys ability to retaliate is going to get the camp attacked.

Now before anyone pulls out the old, tired list of all the foolproof ways of keeping that from happening, please realize that the bad guys should know all those tricks too, and should know the ways around them.

Nova was never a rules issue.

Exactly....if the bad guys have wizards, they're going to know about Rope Trick and the other means of making camps, and they're going to be looking for them. It's not going to be a mystery.

Banshee

 

[Hussar]

However, one has only to look at the TSR Modules of Yore to see that fighter gear was targetted by such things as Heat Metal conditions, strong magnetism, etc. And let us not forget the humble rust monster. The beginning of Module A4 is as hard on fighters as on casters....harder in some ways, because a few spell components (pinch of sand for Sleep, for example) are trivially easy to find.

No, in early D&D, everyone is more-or-less targetted equally.

I wondered if this would come up. Let's take a closer look shall we? Heat metal, for example, does damage, but, does not actually damage the item. So, that's a bit of a non-sequitor right there. How many other spells are there in 1e that specifically destroy equipment? One monster, sure, but, outside of oozes (which are deadly to pretty much everything), how many monsters actually specifically target equipment?

I just happen to have my copy of Isle of the Ape right here. Bear with me for a moment while I get to my point. In IotA, the first couple of pages details what changes are made to the standard rules. First off, the following spells do not function at all:

Alter Reality
Animal Summoning
Astral Spell
Augury
Cacodemon
Chariot of Sustarre
Commune
Commune with Nature
Contact Higher Plane
Dimension Door
Divination
Dramij's Instant Summons
Find the Path
Gate
Invisiblity to Animals
Legend Lore
Limited Wish
Locate Object
Monster Summoning
Plant Door
Teleport
Teleport without Error
Transport
Wish
Word of Recall

Additionally,

Illusions applied to reptiles are virtually useless... Invisibility type magic of any sort is also virtually useless... Spell components must be kept track of ... Divine Intervention will not happen, regardless of any claims to the contrary...

Note,"scrolls and spell books are only affected if they remain unprotected and traveling spell books and Boccob Blessed Books are not affected by the attrition condition unless abandoned open".

Look at that list for a second. He's basically stripped out any information gathering spell and any transportation spell. Gee, kinda the exact same problematic spells we're talking about right now aren't we?

Now, that's how the casters get screwed over. How about the non-casters? Well, there's a 20% chance every two weeks that metal items will rust and be destroyed. That's pretty nasty. Except that magic items multiply the duration between checks by 10. So, it's a 20% chance of losing your unprotected (items kept in storage places, protected by oil or the like count only exposure time) metal items every TWENTY weeks.

So, basically, it'll take two years for the fighter to lose all his magic metal items, presuming he does nothing to protect them in the meantime. Was there a Make Whole spell in 1e (including Unearthed Arcana)?

Yeah, it's totally equal.

Or, move over to Queen of the Demonweb pits, another high level adventure. The non-casters lose two pluses on any of their plussed items. That's it. The casters have a shopping list of effects they lose and clerics can't memorize any spell over 2nd level.

That's what you consider equal?

Way back in the early days of the hobby, the power disparity was recognized and adventures were designed in such a way to counter the disparity. They patched the problem instead of fixing it.

 

[Hussar]

Exactly....if the bad guys have wizards, they're going to know about Rope Trick and the other means of making camps, and they're going to be looking for them. It's not going to be a mystery.

Banshee

What's with all the playstyle presumptions here? Sure, if the bad guys have wizards, but, while there might be some adventures where that's true, there's loads and loads of scenarios where that isn't.

Again, the problem is that it simply feeds the vicious circle. You nova, so the DM counters by chucking random encounters at you, so you counter by hiding better, the DM counters by adding in more stuff to find you, so you counter....

Again, the game is being dictated by the magic system and not by any sort of in game play. It's not, "Does it make sense that there are random encounters here" it's, "Well, if I don't chuck in random encounters, I cannot attrit this party resource that is only in the hands of one or two players". I'd rather the system didn't dictate my adventures to me.

Blackbeard was not known for his skilled personnel managment. He was a leader, but not a skilled leader. In a pinch, he relied on Intimidate.

Blackbeard was a sailor and a captain. Your fighter has zero skills that allow him to be a sailor. Never mind that Blackbeard also could navigate and pilot a ship. Again, your fighter cannot do that. He cannot take Profession Sailor as a class skill, Balance is cross class, Kn Geography is cross class.

I totally agree that a pirate captain SHOULD be a fighter. But, no fighter can ever be a pirate captain with his skill list.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I wondered if this would come up.

How could it not? You essentially brought it up, when you claimed only casters were targeted. Interestingly enough, you are now willing to accept that casters are not only targeted, and have changed the bar to "casters are targeted more".



So, out of curiosity, how do you deal with the problem of giant spiders? I mean, giant spiders totally dominate the game. They have poison. And webs. They're so terrifying that 3e specifically included a creature to hunt them down and destroy them.....the spider eater! Surely, giant spiders are the greatest threat to good gameplay that D&D has ever faced!


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

I totally agree that a pirate captain SHOULD be a fighter. But, no fighter can ever be a pirate captain with his skill list.

FIghters can't take the Profession skill? Huh.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So... he fails to persuade the circle, fails to persuade/Bluff Frodo, fails a couple of Will saves, then dies after killing a ridiculous number of orcs. Sounds like a fighter to me. He is nominally an "aristocrat," from a land where political acumen means fighting off weekly raids by wild riders. I don't see him do anything more than is suggested by a few ranks of cross-class skills, even if he were low-level--which he is not. Based on the body count, he had to be at least 6th level, possibly higher if you think he took a bad crit early in the fight.

You miss the quality of his opposition. Elrond. Gandalf. Glorfindel. Aragorn. The One Ring Itself.

Blackbeard was not known for his skilled personnel managment. He was a leader, but not a skilled leader. In a pinch, he relied on Intimidate.

He was enough of a leader to get a gang of literal pirates following him rather than stabbing him in the back. And he was a boatman. This comes to the core problem of the 3.X fighter. They are good at fighting and nothing else. They suck as pirates - no Profession (Shiphandling) or equivalent skill.

Indeed, since the first book has her exhibiting zero supernatural abilities of her own.

You mean other than praying and providing someone else with healing through the medallion of Gird? That's your Lay On Hands, right there. And then if I remember rightly she also manages to resist and see through some cloaking magic when the bad guy tries to escape.

She is explicitly a soldier, who later, after having gained considerable skill, has an epiphany and is given the option of training as a paladin.

And was offered that chance because she was already demonstrating things that no ordinary fighter ought to be able to do. And throwing off magic that people ought not to be able to.

She certainly does not have Aura of Courage, and indeed suffers from considerable doubt in herself as a fighter.

Immune to fear isn't the same as immune to self-doubt. She fears - but I'm trying to recall a single time she lets that fear master her.

Edit: For RavenCrowking and from the SRD:
The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).

(The Barbarian at least gets Listen and Survival).

Also Hussar's point is that you deal with Giant Spiders with the same tools you deal with any other monsters in their size class. You don't deal with them by going through at a metagame level and saying "They can't use Web or climb walls." (See Isle of the Ape). And you may have spider eaters. They may be part of the ecosystem. But you don't need to base almost all your tactics around giant spiders if there's simply one giant spider facing you. Your analogy fails at the important points.

 

[pawsplay]

He was enough of a leader to get a gang of literal pirates following him rather than stabbing him in the back.

This is a feat regularly accomplished by orc war leaders. Does this involve anything more than Intimidate, maybe a rank or two in Diplomacy, and being tougher than the other pirates?

And he was a boatman. This comes to the core problem of the 3.X fighter. They are good at fighting and nothing else. They suck as pirates - no Profession (Shiphandling) or equivalent skill.

So? He doesn't need a +30 Profession (Shiphandling) bonus. In fact, all he really needs is bare competence, since crew members likely supplied expertise in navigation, shiphandling, and so forth. Primarily, he is known for being extremely scary, shrewed in his political dealings, and requiring multiple major wounds to finally defeat.

Given that he started his career as a Jamaican sailor, Blackbeard could be:

Edward Teach
Human Fighter 1
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 11
Feats: Skill Focus (Profession[Sailor]), Negotiator
Skils: Balance +2, Climb +4, (Diplomacy +2), Intimidate +4, Profession (Sailor) +5, (Sense Motive) +2, Swim +4

 

[LostSoul]

This is a feat regularly accomplished by orc war leaders. Does this involve anything more than Intimidate, maybe a rank or two in Diplomacy, and being tougher than the other pirates?

I think it depends on your reading of "in your presence":

The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes afterward. After this time, the target’s default attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly (or, if normally unfriendly, to hostile).​

On the same ship would be a pretty reasonable interpretation. Once you hit port, the crew disperses to spend their ill-gotten gains; that makes a lot of sense. You might have a few loyal crew members - the ones you actually make some good Diplomacy checks against - who stick by your side and back you up.

 

[pawsplay]

Also, pirate ships were democratically run. Blackbeard may have been the favored captain because he was preferred by a couple of high-Diplomacy rogues on the crew.