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Feat Taxes, or, It's That Time of the Week Again

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
A few game devs (three that I know of) have publicly written that some feats (Expertise and NAD boosters, namely) are 'no-brainers' or 'math fixes' or some such.

But what do the other devs have to say about feat taxes? Have any of them said anything to the effect of "No, really, they're just options like other feats" or "The math was fine to begin with, and these feats are overpowered mistakes"? Or, barring such opinions, are there any other devs who've joined the "Feat tax!" chorus?

(I know that the PSG advises "If you want to hit more, Expertise is an easy way to boost your chances," but everybody knows that. I'm looking for professional opinions.)
 

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History

Gencon 2008, Developer Q&A panel: "We want 55% to be the absolute minimum possible to hit a PC can have vs even level." So 16 stat vs NADs (4 vs 13 NAD average), 16 stat+2 prof vs AC (6 vs 15 AC average). We're good.

Community: Wait... as we level up we slowly lose to hit, we're not hitting at 55% (and associated NAD issues, Initiative, yada yada yada, all the scaling issues are identical. AC would be in here to if not for Masterwork which was a last minute fix, but I digress).

Developers: "Oh, wow, thanks, we changed the way scaling worked partway into playtesting and didn't notice that. We'll 'release a fix in the PHB2.'"

Community: Why is the fix a feat tax?

Developers: (Note this is prior to their decision to really embrace mass online errata) "We wanted everyone to have equal access to it."

Community: ....

Essentials: Nifty bonus for your tax... if you're lucky enough to be a class that isn't Weapon and Implement (except Staff) and uses something that I care about.

Community: So what is the timeline on (Totem, Holy Symbol, Implements, Dual classes, Insert unsupported option here) Expertise?

Devs play two kinds of games. Home games and playtesting games. As far as I know without a single exception every Dev gives out Expertise in their homes (pre Essentials expertise feats). Playtesting games are played by RAW (and all the characters take Expertise).

Links to two developers stating this. You can dig up dozens of posts of devs talking about their home games.

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House Rules: Bonus Feats Eye of the Beholder
 


i´d also like to know how the original math worked... i guessed for a while now, that skill bonuses and defenses also were in line somewhere in the playtests...

And I still believe, the game works without expertise...
 

Thirded. I'd also be interested to know how close to final deadline that change happened.

History...
I don't suppose you have a link to a recording of this, do you?

Links to two developers stating this. You can dig up dozens of posts of devs talking about their home games.
Thanks, those are two of the posts I already have.

I'm sure there are more, but my search-fu sucks. I wouldn't even know where to begin looking.
 

I was at Gencon. I don't have a recording of it, someone might.

[MENTION=8900]Tony[/MENTION]: That makes a lot of sense. You'd have to ask a Dev, I couldn't get them to tell me when I asked (though it wouldn't fix the NAD issue... I think the reason Masterwork armors have a bonus to NADs is actually for that, but then they realized that it wouldn't always line up and were getting close to deadline. That is just a theory, though.)
 

The disconnect is where people glommed on to that 55% number like the holy grail, losing context and objectivity. As you level, there are also more buffs/de-buffs available, etc. The "55%" is an average (if you will) but too many gamers now claim that's a right on every attack. While they may have been surprised at the number of people who didn't understand the robust tactical aspect of the game (which I think they planned to account for later, because they did), they built a robust system that handled the "math" so long as people filled the roles and understood the tactics.

Also, if "55%" were a magic number, they wouldn't have had varying defenses between the enemy types (soldier, lurker, brute, controller, artillery).

When they expanded the game, they took measures for people who a) wanted to play non-stat-aligned race/class/weapon/etc. combos, b) weren't grasping the tactical aspects fully and (directly or indirectly) c) optimization players.

When the game expanded again, they took measures for people who didn't grasp, like , understand or want character building/playing complexity at it's current level so they came out with the Red Box and Essentials.

It's been shown time and again the game works fine without expertise feats. They're nifty, but not necessary. "Feat Tax" is an utterly ignorant term with no bearing on reality.
 
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It's been shown time and again the game works fine without expertise feats. They're nifty, but not necessary. "Feat Tax" is an utterly ignorant term with no bearing on reality.

This might be true for weapon users, but it's not so true for implement users.

The straight up difference between level 1 and 30 for weapon users without Expertise is:

+2 proficiency, +4 ability score and often +1 weapon talent, +1 more proficiency, +1 charge, +2 combat advantage = +6 to +11 vs. AC 15 = 60% to 85%

+2 proficiency, +9 ability score, +6 magic weapon, +15 half level and often +1 weapon talent, +1 more proficiency, +1 charge, +2 combat advantage = +32 to +37 vs. AC 44 = 45% to 70%

Yes, they are at -3 to hit compared to first level, but they still hit quite frequently because they have a lot of options (upwards of +5 to hit where some of those are not really conditional) to boost their to hit.

Implement users do not typically get +1 weapon talent, +1 charge, +2 combat advantage, or the extra bonus +1 from weapon proficiency.

The straight up difference between level 1 and 30 for implement users without Expertise is:

+4 ability score = +4 vs. NAD 13 = 60%

+9 ability score, +6 magic implement, and +15 half level = +30 vs. NAD 42 = 45%

They are almost always on the low end of the percentage chance to hit of the weapon users and have a lot fewer options for increasing their to hit chance.

Sure, implements users can get combat advantage once in a while, but it's typically based on extra powers or feats whereas weapon users can often get it just by shifting one square.

Expertise is a feat tax for implement users because they suck so much to begin with compared to weapon users.

A straight up 45% chance to hit at level 30 is just plain awful and that's why the designers added in Accurate Implements as well (another feat tax for all intents and purposes).
 

A straight up 45% chance to hit at level 30 is just plain awful and that's why the designers added in Accurate Implements as well (another feat tax for all intents and purposes).
I can't help but note your weapon-user examples, when excluding a charge and combat advantage, produce the same numbers as the implement users. So unless you're charging (and therefore being restricted on what your attack can be) and have combat advantage (certainly not a given), are these weapon-users just plain awful at level 30 as well?

If you're saying it's a must for implement users but not for weapons, why the difference?
 

The disconnect is where people glommed on to that 55% number like the holy grail, losing context and objectivity. As you level, there are also more buffs/de-buffs available, etc. The "55%" is an average (if you will) but too many gamers now claim that's a right on every attack. While they may have been surprised at the number of people who didn't understand the robust tactical aspect of the game (which I think they planned to account for later, because they did), they built a robust system that handled the "math" so long as people filled the roles and understood the tactics.

Also, if "55%" were a magic number, they wouldn't have had varying defenses between the enemy types (soldier, lurker, brute, controller, artillery).

When they expanded the game, they took measures for people who a) wanted to play non-stat-aligned race/class/weapon/etc. combos, b) weren't grasping the tactical aspects fully and (directly or indirectly) c) optimization players.

When the game expanded again, they took measures for people who didn't grasp, like , understand or want character building/playing complexity at it's current level so they came out with the Red Box and Essentials.

It's been shown time and again the game works fine without expertise feats. They're nifty, but not necessary. "Feat Tax" is an utterly ignorant term with no bearing on reality.
You're objectively wrong. The hit percent was calculated based on how many rounds, on average, encounters should take (during playtesting they occasionally had encounters last 14+ rounds). Based on E/E+1/E+2/etc.

Without Expertise the correct number of rounds are flat out not achievable in Paragon/Epic, even by otherwise optimized characters (exceptions of course exist... if you design the party around this limitation, but that isn't 'fun'). And this issue gets worse, not better, as you level; despite Expertise, because of the way monster HP/defenses scales and PC damage doesn't.

One of the very strongest complaints I've heard about 4e is combat length. This is a problem I have literally never had because I understand the math and make sure my group does to. Result: No exceptionally long and grindy combats.

The disconnect is where people don't understand the reasoning for the minimum hit vs even level. It isn't arbitrary, it was a number arrived at for a large variety of objective, mathematical, reasons and was intended to create a parity of experience all the way up to Epic. An E+1 should always take a 5 person party 4 rounds on average. Damage/Hit %/etc need to all exist in relative balance to each other for that to be true. Expertise fixes an error where they don't exist in relative balance to each other. And, in case you missed it, this is an average, not an absolute. Varying defense levels are fine if you're only trying to achieve an average

You can actually see this with Essential classes. eStrikers are basically optimized out of the box to achieve minimum striker baselines and look how many threads we have with people freaking out that they are "overpowered" or "do to much damage." But I'll cheerfully bet you that an eStriker introduced into a campaign where someone immediately thought that about them suddenly had shorter fights. Their is a straightforward reason for this. eClasses have a much narrower performance band. It is very difficult to make an eClass perform below the expected mathematical minimum (at least in Heroic, they have the same issues of scaling). Not so for older classes, who often perform far below with a poor build, especially if they don't take the fix feats.

Ignorance, by definition, is a lack of knowledge. Developers, people who have done the math in the community (extensively) say "This is how it is." You have a belief about the math (based, near as I can tell, on intuition, anecdotal experience, and the idea that monsters don't get more HP then PCs do damage as you level), but it is no way justified by the numbers. And an unjustified belief is the worst kind of ignorance. You think you know something, but you don't. Socrates said it was poisonous.
 

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