Feat Taxes, or, It's That Time of the Week Again

[UngeheuerLich]

Decreasing monster level does compensate for decreased hit chance on the part of players, but at the cost of decreased hit chance on the part of monsters. If you're 22nd level with an AC 42 defender, the monsters are already looking for ~15 to hit without decreasing their chance further.

Much like it's not so simple to compare play experience using pre-MM3 damage values, or with clerics that could astral seal for 40 hp healed, or various anti-damage techniques that actually completely negated monster damage.

Decreased hit chance of the monster is compensated by increased damage post MM3. I made a fast calculation in a different thread (or this one some weeks ago), and you see, that a MM3 monster of 3 levels lower in high epic does about the same damage as a pre MM3 monster, but with less hits. (note, that less frequent but more powerful hits has two added benefits: 1. Damage reduction is more easily overcome. 2. Status effects like stuns don´t hit players as often.)

So the encounter range defined in the spoiler tag i responded to, was shifted 3 levels down, and the viable range of monsters is as big as with the expertise fit.

MM3 damage and exprtise should neatly expand the range upwards, as hitting more than expected makes the experience rather better than worse and the range of viable monsters is increased.

 

[keterys]

*shrug* Having run a whole lot of level 22nd level play recently, I can say that hitting is already hard enough when using level 23 stuff against the party. It's a sad thing when your level 23 "big bad" uses their "big attack" and misses every single person in the party.

Level 17 stuff, as you suggested, would be looking for 20s to not crit against many PCs.

Maybe if you _also_ removed the entire line of improved/superior/epic defense feats, Champion's Countenance, and some items like the Helm of Able Defense and Golden Ring of Teros.

Regardless... damage is not the only factor in hitting. It's often not even the most important one. Also, the pre-MM3 damage levels were _bad_, so lowering level so you still hit them isn't really a full win.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think i get what you are trying to say... but i think you are not getting what I try to say. I guess it is, that I try to explain something a bit complicated in a foreign language.

Expertise -> beeing able to hit equal level monsters with the chances the math expects (with defense boosting feats, you also can resist them well enough)
MM3 math -> MM3 monsters are as good as MM2 monsters of three levels higher in epic. So you can use monsters of 3 levels lower now.

Both approaches will result in the same lethality, the only difference is some less hp of MM3 monsters and somewhat faster fights, and somewhat lower xp.

I guess, the combination of both things will tilt the math in favour of the PCs, but if you use equal level MM3 monsters, the danger is great enough, that you don´t have to use so much higher Monsters to challenge the players, and this way, the play experience is better... but this last paragraph is only a guess...

 

[keterys]

MM3 math -> MM3 monsters are as good as MM2 monsters of three levels higher in epic. So you can use monsters of 3 levels lower now.

I find this conclusion illogical. A change in damage is not a change in attack, hit points, defense, etc. A monster 3 levels lower dies much faster, for instance.

I guess, the combination of both things will tilt the math in favour of the PCs, but if you use equal level MM3 monsters, the danger is great enough, that you don´t have to use so much higher Monsters to challenge the players, and this way, the play experience is better... but this last paragraph is only a guess...

It is certainly the case that a DM running epic in MM1 era might dig up an N+7 combat to challenge his PCs, and only need an N+3 now. In addition to new damage values, there are also better status effect protections on elites and solos, and many of the totally broken combinations have been addressed.

Under no circumstances should you make the use of MM1 monsters contingent on expertise, or think that removing expertise means you shouldn't use newer monsters, though. The new really is much better than the old, and it's a _totally separate thing_.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You still don´t understand me...

I never suggested using MM1 monsters and removing expertise... it is the worst idea i can think of...

It is certainly the case that a DM running epic in MM1 era might dig up an N+7 combat to challenge his PCs, and only need an N+3 now. In addition to new damage values, there are also better status effect protections on elites and solos, and many of the totally broken combinations have been addressed.

This is the reason, why MM3 math changed the game in a similar way than expertise! Players hit monsters of an equal challenging encounters more easily leading to less frustration.

In conclusion, MM3 monsters + Expertise will result in PC characters hitting 35% more often in your example... I really don´t know how you read out of my post that i suggested anything near using no expertise and no MM3 monsters... :/