How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

Raven Crowking

First Post
Yeah, normal is odd in a CR scaling game.

Yeah.

I agree that KM is correct about what the core books say, but in actual play and in actual product? Well, IME and IMHO, the ramifications of the 3e CR system lead directly into what we see in 4e.

The RC system sounds like one of the logical evolutions of the more free form 3E system. Is it still in beta?

I am working on the finalized pdf!


RC
 

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pawsplay

Hero
Where some extra hit points = 28 - or more than a third of your 81. My guy is tougher. And has DR. And Uncanny dodge.

Those are definitely nice things. Barbarians do have their advantages.

And let's have a look at the restriction raging imposes, shall we?

Off the top of my head the only three skills you can't use from that list while raging are Appraise +2, Diplomacy +4, and Knowledge (geography) +2

"Inability to use most skills." Right. Appraising, combat diplomacy (as opposed to combat intimidate), and knowledge (geography). Some restriction given you are fighting for your life.

You ommitted uses of untrained skills. Your Blackbeard has to stop raging simply to attempt a Bluff, to Search for something, to tie a rope around himself, or to attempt any Knowledge check whatsoever.

Toughness? Mine can almost take those 120hp damage - and has DR. Yours isn't close. Skills? Mine beats yours. Ranged combat? Mine beats yours. Melee? Apparently you think 33% of your hit points are worth 2 points of AC. Right.

It probably is. If my opponent needs a 17 or higher to hit me, it's literally true, without taking into account all the reasons you wouldn't want to be hit at all.

And an edge case iof combat more than eight rounds after the melee starts is worth a lot.

Pfft. Edge case? I've seen a barbarian's rage expire many times. And in fact, in my 1st to 20th level game, the only full BAB character who ever died was a Barbarian.

At what? He's better with skills. He's better with ranged combat. He's better in melee combat that doesn't go beyond 8 rounds. And he's a lot tougher.

He's not tougher at all if the melee combat runs more than 8 rounds. He's only marginally better in melee for those 8 rounds, and if he wants to do something other than attack during those 8 rounds, may find his choices limited. I don't see how's better at ranged combat, unless "the same to-hit, with a lower AC and inconsequentially higher hit points which will not be all that high when a ranged combat WILL run eight rounds or longer in most cases," is better.

And barbarians don't have to be. They can wait until the critical moment then hit as hard and brutally as possible to turn the tide.

And hopefully their opponents will adopt exactly the same tactics, despite not being barbarians, and not use defensive tactics, withdraw, or focus on ranged attacks.

Anyway, this serves no further purpose.

It does to me. Obviously, it isn't serving much of a purpose to you since each level of argument is explosing more weaknesses in your argument. ;)

Your Barbarian is a slightly better shock trooper, but as a generalist, well, Fighter, he just doesn't stack up, and he won't. The only things really in his favor are a few skill points, DR, and Survival as a class skill. Rage is over-rated; this is not hard to conceive, and in actual play, is very easy to discern.

Because of the peculiarities of the skill system, your Barbarian does slightly better at certain skill checks, but being amazing at those skill checks is not Blackbeard's archtype, nor is your barbarian more competent at those skills to a great degree anyway. Implicitly, you seem to believe Barbarians are simply better at fighting; I am not sure why you believe that to be the case. Rage offers substantial bonuses, but it is a specialized and limited approach to combat.
 

pawsplay

Hero
Yeah.

I agree that KM is correct about what the core books say, but in actual play and in actual product? Well, IME and IMHO, the ramifications of the 3e CR system lead directly into what we see in 4e.

I went "old school" with regard to CR. I definitely used LESS really weak opponents later in the game, but I maintained a mix of CRs for the sake of verisimilitude. Where 4e implemented minions, I simply used monsters as written that were outgunned.
 


Votan

Explorer
Because of the peculiarities of the skill system, your Barbarian does slightly better at certain skill checks, but being amazing at those skill checks is not Blackbeard's archtype, nor is your barbarian more competent at those skills to a great degree anyway. Implicitly, you seem to believe Barbarians are simply better at fighting; I am not sure why you believe that to be the case. Rage offers substantial bonuses, but it is a specialized and limited approach to combat.

I admit that I prefer to think of what I am sure that the 3.5E fighter does well: Achilles. A classic, by the book, fighter. His protection can be modeled in a number of ways but I remember one book that made it plate mail (that he was actually strong enough to wear). Add in feats like combat expertise and he'd be a really, really tough foe. No difficult profession or social skills beyond that of a normal Greek citizen. Just ice cold blood, high AC and incredible fighting skills.

Blackbeard feels harder to model with the 3.5E fighter, and part of it depends on what material is available as well. With the Able Learner feat (he is human and fighters clearly do not lack feats) the cross class skills matter less; so it really is tough. But a single level of rogue or ranger can do amazing things to the build (and favored enemy:human or favored enviroment: High Seas would be flavorful options, depending on the ruleset).

But I find King Arthur to be a better example of a tough case (unless you make him a Paladin with a low wisdom score so he can't cast spells, which is my preferred interpretation).
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Or use the spell-less paladin variant.

Of course, if you look at Deities & Demigods from 1Ed, he was a Paladin- and dual classed into other stuff, as I recall.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Raven Crowking said:
I agree that KM is correct about what the core books say, but in actual play and in actual product? Well, IME and IMHO, the ramifications of the 3e CR system lead directly into what we see in 4e.

I dunno. It seems more like early 4e's baby-with-the-bathwater approach to trying to save the DM time in this case to me. The idea is that a "normal person" doesn't provide any challenge for a "heroic" PC, so they don't need stats, they don't need rules, and they can exist as pure story entities, and providing anything more than story for them is the worst kind of raw fanwank that produces nothing of use for actual play, but plenty of message board narm moments from the obsessive simulationists out there.

I think this approach neglects the fact that part and parcel of the fun of gaining levels and increasing in power is that you can compare what you're capable of at low levels and high levels, and you can compare what you're capable of to what people who aren't heroes are capable of. That change in feel over time, the fact that what was once dangerous is now a cakewalk, the fact that no mere town guard could kill that goblin king -- that's an important sensation for the power fantasy of RPG game play. Your characters don't exist in a vacuum, and they can't, if their deeds are to have any meaning beyond the gameplay of rolling dice and doing math. Otherwise it feels empty and vapid in the extreme.

FWIW, 4e has softened in many respects (there's no first level gods, and town guards peter out at about 10th level), but they still really do struggle with the implications of this design choice, such as in their inability to do epic level as anything other than "more of the same, now with bigger numbers!"

I'm not sure it's a CR-system-style problem (that's just a way of ranking enemies -- XP totals did the same thing) as much as it is a problem with tearing the sim out of D&D by its roots in an effort to save DMs pointless work, and finding a problem where there was supposed to be a solution.
 


pawsplay

Hero
Blackbeard feels harder to model with the 3.5E fighter, and part of it depends on what material is available as well. With the Able Learner feat (he is human and fighters clearly do not lack feats) the cross class skills matter less; so it really is tough. But a single level of rogue or ranger can do amazing things to the build (and favored enemy:human or favored enviroment: High Seas would be flavorful options, depending on the ruleset).

Hard to do, yeah, kinda. But I choose to complain about the skill system in this case, which is easily remedied, rather than insisting he belongs to some other archetype. Since he does, you know, steal stuff, I might accept a level of Rogue, but only under duress; he doesn't really do any of the things people normally use Rogue for, apart from having lots of skill points. Hence I prefer to just burn a couple of feats. Ranger... that's so meta. He's not a Ranger. Favored Enemy (humans) is sort of cute, but Track is not.
 

Jeff Wilder

First Post
The point is - in what way is playing 3E as a teleport/ropetrick/find-the-path/contact-other-plane/knock-on-scrolls/etc game playing as not intended?
In what way is playing basketball by dribbling with your face playing as not intended?

Cast your mind out on the cushiony soles of some Nikes* and imagine actually playing basketball by dribbling with your face? Are you there?

(You are? Seriously? Damn ... )

Okay, in your imagination, is there any hint at all, as you face-dribble, that you're not playing as intended?

What is it that gives it away?

(* Nikes were hip and cool when I played basketball in high school and college. It's probably some other brand now. Don't let my fashion-ossification interfere.)

Look, knock alone cannot possibly "break" the wizard. Nor can scry or teleport or glitterdust or any number of -- yes, I can admit it, and have done so explicitly and implicity (by moving to PFRPG) -- problematic spells. Seriously, if your GM can't handle, say, the use of glitterdust once a combat, your GM sucks.

To break the wizard you have to have:

(a) A player willing to scour the game for many or all of the "best" spells.
(b) A player willing to use many of those spells with abusive frequency and in abusive combination.
(c) Other players willing to allow the douchebag player to deliberately ruin their fun.
(d) A GM willing to allow the douchebag player to deliberately ruin the game.

We have never, in 11 years of playing 3E, had a group that combined (a) through (d). I'm pretty sure we've never had more than two of those factors in combination.

People that experience this problem have all four factors in combination.

That's not a problem with the system. That is a problem with douchebag players and/or a milquetoast GM. It's really that simple.
 
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