Hit Point Ceiling

[Water Bob]

I saw an interesting "gritty reality" rule in a generic d20 supplement. I don't think I'll use it, but I'll slap it on ya and see what your comments are.

The rule says that characters can never have more hit points than 2x CON. Fighter class characters are restricted to a hit point ceiling of 3x CON.

Interesting, yes?

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Interesting, yes?

No.

If you take hit points to be the combination of wounds, morale, luck, near misses, fatigue, etc. that they are in D&D, there's no reason to cap them, since as you rise in skill HP should rise by a corresponding factor. Even if only your first [Con mod] or [twice Con mod] or whatever HP are "real wounds" the remaining non-wounds portion of HP should scale normally.

If you take hit points to be purely wounds, then having more than 10 or so HP is "unrealistic" because a couple dagger thrusts can kill someone, so having even double Con isn't gritty enough...and why are you playing with the abstract d20 system if you want "gritty" or "realistic" rules?

 

[Water Bob]

..and why are you playing with the abstract d20 system if you want "gritty" or "realistic" rules?

The d20 system is quite malleable. Just look at how different (and gritty) the Conan RPG is compared to normal D&D 3.5. The d20 system can be abstract, but it can also be quite simulationist.

I wouldn't use the rule, but I think its interesting. I like talking rules. I just brought it up for discussion.

 

[Dandu]

Gimps fighters by making them unable to fight.

Relatively less of a hindrance to spellcasters, if they use certain defensive strategies.

 

[Empirate]

HP is not where the game's at, really.

You know what would really make the game more gritty? Making death meaningful (remove Raise Dead etc.)! Making permanent disfigurement and disability happen (remove the Restoration line, Heal, Regenerate)! Making combat more about skill and less about buffs and items (remove those)! Making combat more about the PCs and less about NPCs (remove summoning, calling, undead creation etc.)! In a word, remove magic from the game, and you get pretty gritty, dull and dreary, not to say dangerous stuff.
HP caps? Let's not bother with that, it doesn't bring 'gritty' across like it should... [/sarcasm]


Do you actually know anybody who really LIKES 'gritty'? All 'gritty' rules ever seem to do is make the game harder, more deadly, and consequently less enjoyably for somebody who likes his character to survive and accomplish something. And the game world usually gets duller, as well. More shades of gray, less actual COLORS, you know?

 

[Dandu]

Do you actually know anybody who really LIKES 'gritty'? All 'gritty' rules ever seem to do is make the game harder, more deadly, and consequently less enjoyably for somebody who likes his character to survive and accomplish something.

But it just means that any quantum of victory the PC does scrape by with all the more meaningful, like rotten food eaten by a starving man. Why, in order to appreciate our food I suggest we all starve ourselves for a good week or two between meals.

Metaphorically, of course.

 

[JamesonCourage]

HP is not where the game's at, really.

You know what would really make the game more gritty? Making death meaningful (remove Raise Dead etc.)! Making permanent disfigurement and disability happen (remove the Restoration line, Heal, Regenerate)! Making combat more about skill and less about buffs and items (remove those)! Making combat more about the PCs and less about NPCs (remove summoning, calling, undead creation etc.)! In a word, remove magic from the game, and you get pretty gritty, dull and dreary, not to say dangerous stuff.
HP caps? Let's not bother with that, it doesn't bring 'gritty' across like it should... [/sarcasm]

I'm totally down. It's not really dull, either. It makes you think more. Especially outside the box. I mean, a game full of magic is just as fun, too. But, each playstyle has its ups.

In my game, I did indeed remove bringing people back from the dead, making permanent disfigurement and disability happen, remove nearly all magical buffs and items, hard capped summoning (and you cannot take a standard action while the summons are out). My players like the game. A lot.

We like D&D too.

Do you actually know anybody who really LIKES 'gritty'?

I do. My players do. So, he knows at least six other people.

All 'gritty' rules ever seem to do is make the game harder, more deadly, and consequently less enjoyably for somebody who likes his character to survive and accomplish something. And the game world usually gets duller, as well. More shades of gray, less actual COLORS, you know?

Characters do indeed die. For good. It sucks if it happens. However, it makes for good roleplaying, and when characters do die in amazing ways, it's actually really cool. If they died in a way that seems trivial, the other PCs tend to raise their "meaningless death" as something to strive against. The dead PC essentially becomes a warcry. That works for us.

Personally, I like shades of grey. I don't even use alignment.

But it just means that any quantum of victory the PC does scrape by with all the more meaningful, like rotten food eaten by a starving man. Why, in order to appreciate our food I suggest we all starve ourselves for a good week or two between meals.

Metaphorically, of course.

I'm totally down. Better than gorging myself, or becoming apathetic to the stuff I truly do enjoy.

 

[Water Bob]

Gimps fighters by making them unable to fight.

The other side of the argument is that it makes fighters fight smart. No longer can they wade into untold hordes without really worrying about being hurt, spreading death and mayhem in their path. I'm thinking of the scene in LotR: TTT where Aragorn and Gimly jump off the battlements at Helm's Deep onto the bridge into a sea of orcs and goblins.

A rule like this wouldn't be one for the super heroic games who want to emulate that scene. But, for the GMs who see that scene and say, "Riiighht. Not in my game," this rule might be useful.

Instead of just wading in, fighting one-on-one (or one-on-nine), and doing the deed, this rule would make a fighter's player think more strategically and tactically.

Instead of, "Hey! There's 12 Orcs! Let's go fight 'em!", the rule would encourage a player to think more along the lines of, "Hey! There's 12 Orcs! I'll get their attention and draw them back here. You two spring an amush from the sides, and we'll catch 'em by surprise."

You know what would really make the game more gritty? Making death meaningful (remove Raise Dead etc.)!

I play the Conan RPG. No Raise Dead spell in that game. When your character dies, he's toast.

Do you actually know anybody who really LIKES 'gritty'?

I do. My group does. I see another poster popping up that says he does. And, there are several supplements for sale, like the one I got this idea out of, that are designed to make the game more gritty and realistic. Somebody is buying these supplements.

All 'gritty' rules ever seem to do is make the game harder, more deadly, and consequently less enjoyably for somebody who likes his character to survive and accomplish something.

Harder? That's a point of view. Definitely makes you think, more.

More Deadly? Certainly.

Less Enjoyable? I don't think so. I think a certain amount of grittiness enhances the game. I do understand, though, that some players are interested in playing BIG DAMN HEROES, and I know that can be a hoot, too. It's just different play styles. Star Wars (Big Damn Heroes) is cool, but so is Aliens (Gritty).

 

[frankthedm]

Lowering the massive damage threshold like d20 modern and D20 CoC did might be less game breaking while adding lethality.

Will still boost casters since they have access to things like Maximize Spell though.

 

[Greenfield]

I look at Hit Points as a combination of toughness and skill, knowing how to take a punch or roll with a blow.

Say I take a swing at a 1st level Fighter and do 5 points of damage. That's about half his total, and represents a serious wound.

I take a swing at a 10th level fighter and do the same 5 points of damage. He instinctively rolls away from the strike, or shifts so as to turn the edge of my blade, changing a deep slice into a shallow wound.

I did the same damage to both, but on one he's trying to keep his arm from falling off, and the other has a flesh wound.

It's not a perfect view, of course, because hit points themselves are kinda odd. There's no way to "roll with the punch" when dropped into an active volcano, yest somehow the 10th level can survive while the 1st level become a red, misty steam explosion. And there's no good reason why the fighter with a couple of flesh wounds is harder to heal than the wizard who's cut nearly in half.