GEOMANCER: It's Cheezetastic?

[Visigani]

You seem to be missing the point.

A Wizard/Archivist MT build is a better base for Geometer, but even having the casting stat be Int for a dual classed caster still does not break it even if the progression goes up to level 20.

Having 17th level casting just isn't impressive at level 20, even if it is in two different classes. You lose out on peak power in terms of more versatility and endurance. This is at best and even trade but more often is not.

Comprende?

Except... at 17th level for both classes... you really don't.

What's the difference between a 17th lvl Wizard and a 20th level wizard? Aside from the familiar...

3 9th lvl Spell slots, 2 eighth level spellslots, and 1 7th level spellslot, and three caster levels.. of arcane spells.

Those spell slots are nice... but you're gaining 2 9th lvl Divine spell slots, 3 eighth level divine spellslots, and 4 7th level divine spell slots.

This says nothing of the increased saves, hitpoints, BAB, and skills.

So your 20th lvl Wizard has a base of 4 9th, 8th, and 7th spellslots...

My 17/17 Wizard/Cleric (Geo) has a base of 3 9th, 5 8th, and 7 7th lvl spell slots.

So, you get +1 9th level spell... I get increased hitpoints, BAB, Saves, Fully armored arcane spellcasting, access to Divine Metamagic feats (and can use them on my arcane spells, I believe), and full access to the cleric spell list... and I really only "need" 13 wisdom because I can buy a +X wisdom item by the time I hit high enough level to need it.

 

[Dandu]

My experience with people of your persuasion is that more augment is fruitless. I instead offer to duel you with a level 20 wizard. I am willing to restrict myself to a core only build with no prestige classes.

By the way, I suspect Geomancer doesn't advance MT since MT doesn't advance spells per se.

 

[Visigani]

My experience with people of your persuasion is that more augment is fruitless. I instead offer to duel you with a level 20 wizard. I am willing to restrict myself to a core only build with no prestige classes.

By the way, I suspect Geomancer doesn't advance MT since MT doesn't advance spells per se.

By people of my persuasion you mean people who say 1 spell slot plus 2 spell slots equals 3 spells slots?

As for "dueling characters"... that doesn't really determine a characters potency... player strategy is no substitute for character ability. The Cleric class is, without a doubt, one of the most powerful classes in the game.... but said cleric could easily be felled when played by a novice player against a skilled player with a well built rogue.


As to whether the Mystic Theurge is a Spellcasting Class or not... First, no one has presented a single RAW passage that says they are not. I'll concede the point as soon as someone does.

However, even going by the supposed Rules as Intended (with the above "it doesn't have a spell list, hence it is not a spellcasting class") would suggest that The Suel Arcanamach is a spellcasting class... or even the hexblade is a Spellcasting Class... but the Mystic Theurge, whose only feature IS spellcasting... is not.

Fochlucan Lyrist isn't a spellcasting class.

Ultimate Magus? Also not a Spellcasting class.

The Blighter is a Spellcasting Class, but the Ur-Priest is not a spellcasting class. Why is the Blighter a Spellcasting Class? Because it has a spell list, which the Ur-Priest... which is effectively identical in function to the Blighter (A once devout character turning away from their source of spiritual power).. is not.

Sorry, the "Doesn't have a Spell list" doesn't pass the smell test.

if the ULTIMATE MAGUS isn't a Spellcasting Class... then we've reached the point of no return on silliness.... especially when you can turn around and say that a Spellthief is.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I bet if you asked WotC CustServ, they'd tell you the "spellcasting class" language in PrCls refers to Base classes only.

 

[Empirate]

Visigani, your point has been brought up time and again on this and similar boards. It has, after much discussion, always been shot down. You may play it differently in your game, of course, but this really isn't a unique, new argument you're making, I'm sorry to say.
Geomancer does not advance Mystic Theurge casting, because Mystic Theurge doesn't per se have casting. Both do the same: they advance other classes' casting. Mystic Theurge does it in a different way from Geomancer, in that it advances two other classes' casting. Geomancer does not do this.

You can either accept that this is the result of common internet D&D knowledge (for what that's worth), give a sigh for your interesting idea, and move on - or you can engage people here in what must ultimately be a fruitless debate.

I sincerely hope you're not offended by this, nor by Dandu's sometimes abrasive manner. Welcome to ENWorld!

 

[Dandu]

By people of my persuasion you mean people who say 1 spell slot plus 2 spell slots equals 3 spells slots?

I had stubbornness in mind.

As for "dueling characters"... that doesn't really determine a characters potency... player strategy is no substitute for character ability. The Cleric class is, without a doubt, one of the most powerful classes in the game.... but said cleric could easily be felled when played by a novice player against a skilled player with a well built rogue.

This player with his knowledge of stratiegery is telling you that 20 levels of straight wizard is better than 17 levels of Wizard and 17 levels of Cleric. Either your knowledge of strategy is better, in which case you would win the duel, or it is not, in which case...

Well, I'll leave the completion of that sentence as an exercise to the reader.

Even if you don't want to duel, you should build a sample character at 9, 12, and 20. You'll see a more realistic picture of its capabilities, such as being 2 spell levels behind for the majority of its existence until level 20, where the build peaks. You'll also be able to notice little details that throw off your build which are not immediately obvious. For example, your plan to boost Wisdom with a Periapt of Wisdome has two flaws that would become apparent when the build is plotted on paper. A periapt takes up the neck slot, which is also where your Constitution boosting Amulet of Health goes. This may reduce your hit point lead over the wizard, negate it, or cause you to be behind depending on how heavily Constitution boosting was emphasised. It also means that should you be hit by certain spells targeting magical items, such as Chain Lightening, you will lose your ability to cast higher level clerical spells, which makes you something less than a 17th level cleric.

All that aside, your "17/17, dual 9ths" capabilities do not actually enable you to get the spells out any faster than a level 20 caster, which means your chief selling point is endurance. However, you've traded 3 caster levels on each side for that, and had to drag yourself behind the curve until the last level in the game so I'm at loss as to why you consider it overpowered.

tl;dr: Being 3 spell levels behind in exchange for more spells is not good at level 6, 9, 12, 15, or 18. It's not going to become magically supertastic at level 20.

And that's assuming it works that way, which no one else seems to think it does.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Dandu:
We all love CustServ and the Sage.

Heh!

They ain't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I bet they've fielded THAT question more than once!

 

[akbearfoot]

I don't think it does work that way, since I agree Mystic theurge does not grant spells, but rather enhances spells from other classes.

Even if it did work that way, it wouldn't be particularly good. I'd still rather play a Wizard3/Druid3/MT4/Arcane Heirophant10. Which ends up caster level 17 on both sides without resorting to 'fuzzy' rules. It has armored casting, and also gets an animal companion with familiar abilities, and 13th level wild shaping, along with a few other neat abilities.

Playing the Dual-progression classes usually goes something like this:

Step 1 person goes "Wow, this guy can cast 9th level spells in 2 classes! I totally want to do that!.

Step 2 player rolls up first level character

Step 3 player enjoys said character to 3rd level, then multiclasses

Step 4 player realizes giving up a caster level is pretty much the worst thing a caster can do to himself. He'll constantly be thinking to himself things like "Hrm, if I had gone straight wizard I could be casting Fly or Haste right now." Or "Man I sure wish I could cast dimension door to get out of this grapple!* or "Dang, we can't use teleport until 12th level now, CRAP!"


I am speaking from experience. I am really fond of Arcane Heirophants. It is just plainly weaker compared to a straight caster, until the very pinnacle of the game, where having more total spell levels per day makes very little difference. You can still only normally cast 2 spells per round with quicken.

I've never played a dual-class caster to the top levels because it stops being fun to play after a while. I haven't tried an arcane trickster or a Fochlucan lyrist yet, but I have heard stories from folks who have. They are strikingly similar to my own experience.

 

[DireWereTeddy]

As to whether the Mystic Theurge is a Spellcasting Class or not... First, no one has presented a single RAW passage that says they are not. I'll concede the point as soon as someone does.

Alright. This isn't exactly what you asked for, but it's near enough as I can tell.

At each geomancer level, the character gains new spells per day as if he had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which he had belonged before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

The Mystic Theurge does not grant spells per day. It has a class features which functions in the exact same manor as the Geomancer's. It does not gain that benefit, it only gains additional spells per day, which the Mystic Theurge does not grant.

8. Spells: Spellcasting characters gain the ability to cast more spells as they advance in levels. Each class description for a spellcasting class includes a Spells per Day section (on the class table) that shows the base number of spells (without bonus spells for high ability scores) of a given spell level that a character can cast at each class level. See your character's class description in this chapter for details.

As per this quote, the Mystic Theurge does not show a 'base number of spells' and therefore does not qualify.

And finally...

Prestige classes are purely optional and always under the purview of the DM.

Nothing that we, or the rulebooks, say matters if, and only if, you can talk you DM into allowing it to function that way. I wouldn't allow it, but I'm not your DM.

 

[Visigani]

Visigani, your point has been brought up time and again on this and similar boards. It has, after much discussion, always been shot down. You may play it differently in your game, of course, but this really isn't a unique, new argument you're making, I'm sorry to say.
Geomancer does not advance Mystic Theurge casting, because Mystic Theurge doesn't per se have casting. Both do the same: they advance other classes' casting. Mystic Theurge does it in a different way from Geomancer, in that it advances two other classes' casting. Geomancer does not do this.

You can either accept that this is the result of common internet D&D knowledge (for what that's worth), give a sigh for your interesting idea, and move on - or you can engage people here in what must ultimately be a fruitless debate.

I sincerely hope you're not offended by this, nor by Dandu's sometimes abrasive manner. Welcome to ENWorld!

Not offended, but there's nothing in the rules as written or even that I can see in rules as intended that agrees with your perspective. I'll drop the argument, but it's "Law by public consensus" rather than any factual basis. As I said above, based on your argument... the Champion of Gwynervyf is a Spellcasting Class, but the Ultimate Magus is not. It's counterintuitive, to put it mildly.


Oh, and thanks for being terribly polite. =)