Trip with special weapons??

[Water Bob]

I noticed in D&D 3.5 (and in my own Conan RPG) the Trip maneuver, if you're using a weapon to trip your foe, requires specific weapons.

For example, the 3.5 D&D PHB indicates that a halberd could be used to trip a foe but a spear cold not. A guisarme can be used, but a quarterstaff can not.

Why?

I does seem like the weapons selected for tripping have either a "hook" feature or can wrap around a limb, like the whip. Is that a requirement of the weapon? Hook feature or wrap-around ability?

Or, maybe it's a game balance issue? If it is, I think the game designers should have just made the act of tripping harder instead of restricting weapons.

The only other thing I can think of is that there needs to be some force exerted. You can shove your spear betwixt your foe's legs, but he'll attempt to dodge it. It might be quite hard to trip your opponent that way. You'd have to thrust the spear and then give the bloke a little push, huh? That would take you back to a regular, unarmed trip.

Thus, your weapon needs to "grab on" to the victim, like a whip, or you need a hook on your spear so that you can ram it between your foe's legs and then pull back, tripping him with the hook.

Any other ideas on why the rule is written this way?

 

[Ashtagon]

You know, regardless of what you are armed with, you can always use your legs to perform an unarmed trip manoeuvre. I highlighted the relevant bits.

Trip

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Making a Trip Attack

Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.
If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.
Being Tripped (Prone)

A tripped character is prone. Standing up is a move action.
Tripping a Mounted Opponent

You may make a trip attack against a mounted opponent. The defender may make a Ride check in place of his Dexterity or Strength check. If you succeed, you pull the rider from his mount.
Tripping with a Weapon

Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

If tripping as an unarmed attack were impossible, they would not include a specific paragraph outlining the exceptions involved if you are using a weapon.

 

[Water Bob]

I understand that tripping is possible with unarmed trip attempts. My comment is that the game singles out specific weapons and says, "You can only trip with these weaons."

I was wondering why a character try to trip with, say, a spear or a quarterstaff. Neither is on the "approved Trip weapons" list, but doesn't it seem logical that you could take your quarterstaff, shove it between your foe's legs, and have some shot at tripping him?

 

[Dandu]

I would have no trouble allowing someone to do such a maneuver.

 

[Ashtagon]

... but doesn't it seem logical that you could take your quarterstaff, shove it between your foe's legs, and have some shot at tripping him?

Not really, no. Once it is between his legs, pushing or pulling it makes no difference. You don't really have leverage to twist it unless you run around him, which he is more than easily capable of defeating by turning in place. You lack sufficient swing space to move it sideways with any meaningful force. Upwards is about the only way you could move it to present an obstacle to him, in which case, you've just left yourself wide open for him to step inside your defence and force you to drop your weapon.

If you really must, use the weapon rules for tripping, but treat it as an improvised weapon (-4 on attack roll), although as always you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

 

[Empirate]

The way I see it, it's mostly a balance thing. Compare the four martial reach weapons: Lance deals double damage on a charge, Guisarme can trip, Ranseur gets a bonus to disarm, and Glaive can do none of these, but does the most damage out of the set. This way, each of them has a right to exist. In my book the Guisarme is the best of them, because tripping is powerful, but all in all, they're still more or less balanced.

 

[Water Bob]

Not really, no. Once it is between his legs, pushing or pulling it makes no difference.

...as I said in the OP.

So presumably, the game designers looked at tripping with a weapon and decided that a weapon needed a hook or the ability to wrap around a limb in order to trip. Otherwise, it's a normal trip without the weapon because the push/pull action is done with the hands.

I think I've got a handle on this.

I guess it would be hard to gain leverage somewhere with a spear. You'd have to move too far, and the enemy would adjust.

 

[Dandu]

Not really, no. Once it is between his legs, pushing or pulling it makes no difference.

Yeah, that's what she said.

 

[Empirate]

He had that coming...

 

[Dandu]

Yeah, that's what she said.