• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Just how compatible is Essentials?

ForeverSlayer

Banned
Banned
I am seeing arguments about Pre-Essentials and Essentials with regards to the two being compatible. I see people getting all defensive and say yes the two are very much compatible but I'm thinking different.

Yes I see Pre-E slowly becoming more and more compatible with Essentials, but this seems to be because Pre-E is slowly being turned into the direction moving forward. We have tried having both games going on at the same time but to no avail because sometimes there are problems with trying to make everything fit.

I also hear a good many people saying that Essentials is just an option to the game and I really cry BS on this. It would be the same as saying that 3.5 was just an option for 3rd edition and we all know that would have been a lie. For Essentials to be "just an option", the designers sure are changing everything that came before to fit with this new "option".

I also find it difficult when I explain the game to new comers on just where you are supposed to start. To be perfectly honest I just tell them to pick up the three small books and start there. I get really tired of having to jump back and forth when I am explaining the game. Wizards has the game in such a state of disarray that I wish they would just start all over and bring us another edition.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I am seeing arguments about Pre-Essentials and Essentials with regards to the two being compatible. I see people getting all defensive and say yes the two are very much compatible but I'm thinking different.

Yes I see Pre-E slowly becoming more and more compatible with Essentials, but this seems to be because Pre-E is slowly being turned into the direction moving forward. We have tried having both games going on at the same time but to no avail because sometimes there are problems with trying to make everything fit.

I also hear a good many people saying that Essentials is just an option to the game and I really cry BS on this. It would be the same as saying that 3.5 was just an option for 3rd edition and we all know that would have been a lie. For Essentials to be "just an option", the designers sure are changing everything that came before to fit with this new "option".

I also find it difficult when I explain the game to new comers on just where you are supposed to start. To be perfectly honest I just tell them to pick up the three small books and start there. I get really tired of having to jump back and forth when I am explaining the game. Wizards has the game in such a state of disarray that I wish they would just start all over and bring us another edition.

I have to disagree completely, though I'm sure you knew in posting that this is a polarizing topic.

Compatibility: very few changes to the system were actually brought on by essentials. Almost everything new with the system came from errata in the months leading up to it. As far as characters, I prefer, even as a DM, to think of characters as black boxes. What goes on inside the box, that is what resources they manage or howmtheir powers work, is irrelevant as lomg as the output, how fast the character moves, the damage it puts out and the effects it applies on other characters, is on par with other characters. I feel that essentials satisfies this.

Optional: While our first true post-essentials suppliment, Heroes of Shadow was heavily weighted on essentials style content over classic content, there is still a bunch of new powers for the wizard, cleric and paladin. The comparison between essentials and 3.5 is unfair. 3.5 changed fundamental aspects of the system which would make it impossible for a table to contain players using both 3rd and 3.5: size and facing was altered to remove non-square monsters, feats were drastically changed, classes were altered to shift the levels at which powers were gained, damage reduction was reworked...

Essentials did not fundamentally change any rules that would invalidate PHB (errata had been doing that for years). Feats were not changed, rather feats were added. Classes presented in essentials are no more or less powerful than classic classes, and changes made offered truely alternative interpretations without obsoleting, invalidating or branding too powerful or weak those that came before. The only true change I can think of is the upgrade to sneak attack.

New Players: I would absolutely not mention PHB1 to a new player as a good introduction to the game. Once they'd learned the game with Heroes of the F---, I'd point them at the FREE erratad versions of te original classes, and toward PHBs 2 and 3, the setting Players' Guides, Martial/Arcane/Divine/Etc Power if they were interested in different types of characters.
 
Last edited:

I am seeing arguments about Pre-Essentials and Essentials with regards to the two being compatible. I see people getting all defensive and say yes the two are very much compatible but I'm thinking different.

In this case, those people are right. All 4e material printed to date - including Essentials - is compatible with all other 4e material. It's all the same system.

Yes I see Pre-E slowly becoming more and more compatible with Essentials, but this seems to be because Pre-E is slowly being turned into the direction moving forward. We have tried having both games going on at the same time but to no avail because sometimes there are problems with trying to make everything fit.
Could you illustrate some of these problems? Maybe provide examples? I run a game right now featuring an Essentials Cleric, Essentials Wizard, non-Essentials Paladin, non-Essentials Assassin, and non-Essentials Swordmage. I have never run into a single issue.

So examples from you would help us pinpoint where the problem lies.

I also hear a good many people saying that Essentials is just an option to the game and I really cry BS on this.
You shouldn't. Essentials is just an extra set of options for the game, in the same way that you might open up the Player's Handbook 3 and find an extra set of options for the game.

Crying BS on it is BS.

It would be the same as saying that 3.5 was just an option for 3rd edition and we all know that would have been a lie.
It would not be like this at all. 3.5 was a clear restarting of the product, and it was clear up front that things would have to see some conversion in order to work properly. This is not the case with Essentials. The printing of Essentials did not in any way affect the playability of any older characters sitting at the same table with an Essentials character. All the old options were still valid, and while some eventually received updates, classes, feats, powers, paths, destinies, races and so forth have been receiving updates since 4e came out; calling it a new edition now just seems silly.

The reality is that 4e is the first truly living edition of D&D, wherein the developers can make whatever changes need to be made to the game in a fairly seamless manner, thanks to the level of digital tools integration 4e has.

To call Essentials analogous to 3.5 is to speak from ignorance.

For Essentials to be "just an option", the designers sure are changing everything that came before to fit with this new "option".
Not really. They changed a handful of things, and the rest was a simple reformatting of some older classes to have a similar layout to the Essentials classes. This was for ease of navigating the rules, and visual consistency, not for the sake of substantially changing existing classes. Again, the sorts of changes we have seen made to older classes post-Essentials are not any different from the sorts of changes we have seen made to those same classes pre-Essentials.

I also find it difficult when I explain the game to new comers on just where you are supposed to start.
Open up Heroes of the Fallen Lands of Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms and start there. Easy.

To be perfectly honest I just tell them to pick up the three small books and start there.
Just have them start with one: whichever of the two I listed above contains classes that appeal to them.

I get really tired of having to jump back and forth when I am explaining the game. Wizards has the game in such a state of disarray that I wish they would just start all over and bring us another edition.
This is silly. Why are you jumping back and forth? Could you provide concrete examples of how you are being forced to jump back and forth during your explanation that could not be solved by simply sticking to teaching from one book or the other? Again, specific examples would help us pinpoint where your problem is.

I get the feeling from the tone of your post, however, that you're posting because you've really already made your mind up, despite the fact that you have some pretty clear misunderstandings about where the Essentials line fits in the 4e framework. Is this not the case? Because, if it's not, there will be plenty of people happy to help. If that is the case, though, I think people will be reluctant to waste time trying to batter through an iron-clad opinion disguised as a genuine question.
 
Last edited:

our group has both preessentials and essentials stuff played in the same game. it's all the same game to us and that's how we treat it and we have no reason to view it as something different. no one notices a difference.

at least that's been my table experience through actual playtime with it ever since essentials books were released and how it continues to be for our group.
 

I also hear a good many people saying that Essentials is just an option to the game and I really cry BS on this.

It is just an option to the game. Trust me. I've got both Essentials and non-Essentials pcs in my campaign, and it doesn't hurt a thing.

It would be the same as saying that 3.5 was just an option for 3rd edition and we all know that would have been a lie.

No, it's the same as saying "Martial Power is just an option for the game."

For Essentials to be "just an option", the designers sure are changing everything that came before to fit with this new "option".

Are you referring to the errata process? The same process that has been in place since the game's release? Or the fine-tuning of some of the monster math, which has also been ongoing since release? Or perhaps the release of new and better feats?

Do you object to all of these things? I can understand that, even if I don't agree with it, but think that they have improved the game vastly since its first couple of years.

I do wish they'd clean up the overabundance of now underpowered feats.

I also find it difficult when I explain the game to new comers on just where you are supposed to start. To be perfectly honest I just tell them to pick up the three small books and start there. I get really tired of having to jump back and forth when I am explaining the game.

Did Martial Power make you feel this way too? If so, why? If not, why are the 'three little books' affecting you so differently?

EDIT: Have you actually played in or dmed a game with both E-classes and their non-E brethren? I think you will find that they function differently but are about equally effective.
 


I, like everyone else who has responded, am playing in a game with mix and encountering no difficulties what-so-ever.

I really wonder at the OP's motives for posting in the first place.

Ditto. Curious to know. I run games with a mix. I design content as well.
 

Compatible? Yes

You probably would not notice much difference between characters.

Though, sometimes, when one individual character is made up of some 4E parts and some 4E.E parts, there can be some rules which seem to interact a little differently than I imagine they were intended.

I haven't seen anything mind blowing yet, but I've noticed a few combos which seem to be a little better than they probably should be. One example would be some of the 4E.E classes and the Bard utility power Increase The Tempo. Granting an Essentials character 4 basic attacks tends to make the power a little better than it was before.
 

Pretty compatible

Play-wise, very compatible. I play in a couple games and DM in another, and so far, we have the following:

(TLDR version of the s-blocks below: Through playtests and actual play experience, the Essentials classes intermix well with the classic 4e ones quite well. The play experiences differ (some more than others), and sometimes the essentials ones seem better, but often classic options are missed when the essentials versions are there instead.)

[sblock="FR Game (just made it to level 11):"]
Classic 4e Wizard
Classic 4e Cleric (almost completely unaffected by recent errata)
Hybrid OAssassin|Warlock (looking at revising to Executioner Assassin, now that it is available as a hybrid)
Classic 4e Swordmage
Essential 4e Slayer (brought in to replace an Avenger)

The report from that game is that the Slayer is an upgrade for the Avenger in encounters not involving a lot of difficult positioning and where the Avenger wouldn't use a daily, but in certain situations, we wish we had the Avenger back. (Those Pursuit Avengers get some nice movement abilities, and while their dailies aren't as encounter-changing as the Wizard's can be, they do tend to provide an encounter-long buff of some sort. The Slayer, though, seems to hit harder and just about as accurately.)

The wizard player had a version of the character as a Mage that was tried, but ultimately discarded. That Staff of Defense and (Improved) Tome of Readiness is too nice. When the Wizard was tried as a Mage, it was Pyromancy and Evocation, so more on the damage, but less on the control.[/sblock]

[sblock="Home Brew 'Weird Wars' version of the Civil War (only level 3):"]
Hybrid Artificer|Warlord
--Classic 4e Bard (died early, replaced by above)
Hybrid Rogue|Sorcerer
Hybrid Warlock|Swordmage
--Classic 4e Monk (died alongside the Bard, replaced by above hybrid)
Classic 4e Battlemind
Essential 4e Hunter Ranger (formerly represented by a Seeker)

The play from that game suggests that the Hunter Ranger made a more entertaining controller than the Seeker was, and the concept was either about the same or a slightly better fit. When compared (in my head) to a Wizard, though, neither really measures up as a controller. In this case, the Hunter version does better than the Seeker, but not so much better as to be any kind of an imbalance. The Hunter ranger is a different controller than the Seeker or the Wizard, but then again, the Seeker is pretty different from the Wizard and the Druid, too; they are each different in how they are controllers.

I play the Warlock|Swordmage, and I did builds of him as an Essential Hexblade (and might revisit that with the new Hybrid stuff recently released), and there was really very little difference in many aspects of the versions. I chose the hybrid one so I could tinker more during character advancement, but in game, it seems like there would have been very little difference.[/sblock]

[sblock="Home Brew Classic Fantasy (Just made it to Level 13):"]
This one is an odd example. I DM, and there are no Essentials characters (a Wilden Druid, a Tiefling Paladin, an Eladrin Rogue, a Tiefling Warlock, and a Dragonborn Warlord), but the Eladrin's player tinkered with making the rogue a Thief (dropped the idea because he really likes the Daggermaster PP) and the Paladin has toyed with remaking herself as a Cavalier (she likes her Charisma at-wills and the Hell's Keeper too much to switch, though). The thing that makes it a relevant example is my playtesting of encounters. I tend to use a set of Essential characters in my tests. Here's how I map it.

Druid -- He's a ranged controller and pretty damage-focused, so I use that pyromancer build I mentioned above. In the actual game, I see a lot more proning and dazing, but slightly less damage, than in the playtest.

Paladin -- It's my wife's character, and I helped her build it, so that's what I use. :)

Rogue -- I use a thief as a stand-in. I think the Daggermaster crits more (though luck prevented a lot of that in the last two or three sessions), but the thief has more consistent damage. It's not by a lot, though. Both are damnably accurate and hit really hard.

Warlock -- I use a Dex-only elf slayer (archery specialized, and I use Power Strike on the bow, even though that's technically against the rules). The damage is a bit less in the game than in my playtests, but the conditions that the Warlock inflicts are sometimes brutal. The player often hit a melee brute with Grasp of the Iron Tower and took it out of the fight (nearly so, anyway) for a round. The other area of difference is when the character gets into melee. The Slayer can switch weapons and hang in there. The Warlock can do a little of that (SK as the two-fold pact allows Hand of Blight), but that player usually gets out of melee -- assisted with Warlock's Wrath -- as quickly as possible.

Warlord -- I use a Warpriest. The Essentials leader pulls off a similar melee presence, but with less interesting leader-y tricks. The Effect lines on the Warpriest's powers do help a bit in making up that slack, though. Really, the leader plays worse in my playtests. Then again, comparing anything to a Warlord in the leader department can be futile, or so I hear.

So of those five characters, I tend to replace four with Essentials-based builds. Granted, the Mage and Warpriest aren't terribly different from Classic 4e builds (having the AEDU structure), but all of the playtests allow me to make predictions pretty well as to the party's performance in actual play. There are some obvious differences, but encounter power levels relative to the parties tends to be similar in the Essentials-based playtests and in the Classic-only actual table experience.[/sblock]

At the risk of sounding defensive (and definitely ninja'd by earlier posters), I've experienced no difficulties meshing characters that are built with mostly Essentials and those built with mostly Classic stuff into the same party. In fact, I don't see it as a situation of having two games, but of one game with a variety of possible character-building options. For rules material, the Rules Compendium is my personal go-to reference. For character building, we use all the options available. For treasure distribution, each DM does their own thing, and none of us use either the parcel system or the rarity system.

It is my experience that Classic 4e characters run fabulously alongside their essentials brethren. There are some differences, to be sure. The Essential defender aura is simpler to run (and, as Aegeri is fond of pointing out, simpler to avoid or nullify) than the marks of a Classic 4e defender, but it does a similar job. What's more, aside from errata that changed powers (which happened a lot before Essentials, too), characters made under Classic 4e remain legal and able to pull of most if not all the same tricks when run next to an otherwise-Essentials party. (The playtest with my wife's paladin and her actual play experiences being so similar is my anecdotal evidence, here.)

I don't think it is just the Essentials release that has prompted the changes to some of the old rules. Wizards of the Coast has been updating the rules since the PHB1 was released (stealth, anyone? or how about the worst-offending Ranger powers?). In some cases, it's about time they got to the issues that are just now being addressed. (Clerics out-controlling Wizards for one; that annoyed me.)

As to telling new players where to start, it's easy for me. It's been a while since I did it (and last time, it was actually a Mutants and Masterminds 2e game), but my philosophy is to start them with a character that matches their preferences. I don't tell people what books to buy; I just help them make a character that can do the sort of thing they want to do in the game. Get them a character sheet that explains their capabilities. If they then want to buy books, I tell them which ones figured prominently in the design of their character. If I had to cold-introduce someone to D&D, I'd recommend a newcomer to gaming start with one of the HotF* books and an experienced gamer start with one of the PHB# set (unless they were interested in a specific concept better represented by an Essentials build, like the Hexblade -- then they get the relevant book). Both would benefit from the Rules Compendium, too, for a general overview of all the fiddly bits of playing.
 

Nogray, in your experience, how well does it work out when one character mixes Essentials elements with the old elements? For example, let's say a Thief decided to take the daggermaster PP.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top