If it's an obvious choice then it's broken

[Herschel]

None of those things dispute what I wrote.

Those were only the first couple of examples, I'm not going to list the entire board contents.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Ok I must defend the op board... Especially since I posted on it since the phb 1 came out. There are some who talk damage (even in the wizard threads) most optimize the role in quastio ...

I will say that I feel swordmage is the number 2 defender in the game... And some of the handbook writers agree... And it is the least damaging class... Heck I am working on an optimized runepriest who may never have a 3w

 

[aurance]

Those were only the first couple of examples, I'm not going to list the entire board contents.

So... if you were going to disagree with my point, why didn't you choose examples to post up there that actually disputed it?

 

[Herschel]

I don't know about the Seeker and Swordmage guides, but it's hard to think of why a character of any role wouldn't at least want to consider those feats, so I'd scratch my head if they weren't included. The main arguments are "hitting is usually better than missing" and "'dead' is the most powerful status effect"--what's the refutation of those?

Considering Expertise is not necessarily a bad thing, it's simply not needed in many cases, but Focus feats are really kind of pointless many times. "Dead is the most powerful status effect" is a statement steeped in ignorance in this context and shows the tunnel vision of CharOp. 1 damage/hit/tier will almost never be missed, especially outside of accurate multi-attackers vs. single targets. This is in part because of two factors:

1. Minions have 1 HP
2. You don't roll "average" damage when dice are involved.

 

[Herschel]

So... if you were going to disagree with my point, why didn't you choose examples to post up there that actually disputed it?

I actually did, if you bothered to read the handbooks, but that might disrupt your groupthink.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

2. You don't roll "average" damage when dice are involved.

oh if only everyone knew this...

Like wow I want to give everyone that knows this 100 xp

 

[Herschel]

The Seeker was written off due to a perceived inability to apply appropriate levels of control, which is hardly the same as a tunnel-vision on the damages.

It is an example of CharOp tunnel-vision though, even though it doesn't directly relate to damage boosts. We'll never know if it would or wouldn't mention damage because it was just written off in groupthink without fleshing it out. The op mentions about the class are generally based around statements of 'the best you can do is boost your damage and become a light striker' which again ignores what the class can do and speaks directly to pumping damage.

 

[Herschel]

So... if you were going to disagree with my point, why didn't you choose examples to post up there that actually disputed it?

Except I did post one, but you're apparently not going to look at them. In that case, it's not worth spelling more out to because you're simply not going to get it regardless.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It is an example of CharOp tunnel-vision though, even though it doesn't directly relate to damage boosts. We'll never know if it would or wouldn't mention damage because it was just written off in groupthink without fleshing it out. The op mentions about the class are generally based around statements of 'the best you can do is boost your damage and become a light striker' which again ignores what the class can do.

Having only seen heroic (12th level but we ended at that level) I will say flickering arrow is so awesome burst 4-7 all enemies take -2 to attacks on a moving zone... Or bat swarm that tired out many elites...

This IS the faint of the op board being the best seeker is possible but it was written off to early

 

[aurance]

Except I did post one, but you're apparently not going to look at them. In that case, it's not worth spelling more out to because you're simply not going to get it regardless.

Oh, I'm very familiar with each of those things, and they have nothing to do with damage boosts being the best determinant of combat effectiveness, or being the only focus of CharOp.

Seeker is not good, not be cause it can't do damage; it's not good because it is composed of mostly ignorable soft control, with almost hard control.

Frost Backlash is rated as good, but not the best, according to that handbook. Oh, by the way, the handbook is updated for Essentials stuff. How much more updated can it get?

Almost every class needs to hit in order to do its job in combat. Hence, Expertise. And focus is good, because everyone does damage to some extent, but is nowhere near listed as the first pick in the handbooks for controllers, defenders and leaders.

So no, you didn't post examples to dispute my point. Are we reading the same stuff here?