Nonlethal Damage

[Terath Ninir]

Another gamer suggested an interesting tweak to nonlethal damage: Starting at -1 hp, the character no longer takes non-lethal damage but begins to take lethal damage.

Thus, if you beat a character to 3 hp with your fists, he takes nonlethal damage. Hit him again and knock him to 0 hp, he's still only taking nonlethal damage. Hit him again with a nonlethal attack, though, and the damage becomes real damage.

I like the idea, but I think it makes it too easy to beat someone to death.

Need to find an idea somewhere in the middle, where nonlethal and lethal damage can occur from nonlethal attacks, but where neither type of attack is overemphasized.

I've played Exalted for years now. Their solution is similar to this, but elegantly simple. You do nonlethal damage (they call it bludgeoning) until they're down to 0. Then it becomes lethal damage. It's quite simple and even passably realistic, if you care about such things.

As for the original poster: bad guys and Jack Bauers are always reviving unconscious people in stories and then beating on them some more. Just come up with a heal DC you can live with and have the revived character be stunned and mostly unable to act.

Added bonus advice: if you play a spellcaster in 3.0, take the Subdual Substitution feat. It doesn't increase the level of spells you cast and converts the damage from its original type to subdual damage. You can wipe the floor with Outsiders after that. Are demons immune to fire or just resistant? Who cares! My subdual fireball will knock it out and then we'll coup de grace it. Note that they figured this trick out later and Nonlethal Substitution is nowhere near as cool.

 

[Water Bob]

Unarmed attacks and weapons, like the whip and the sap, designed for nonlethal damage, use the d8.

Everything else uses the d4. This includes weapons designed for lethal damage used to inflict nonlethal damage and bound, unaware, or unconscious victims.

I think that, when a character takes a -4 on the attack in order to deliver nonlethal damage (which, under this system, still has a 25% chance of delivering lethal damage) with his weapon, that the character can choose to (before he rolls damage, of course) pull his STR damage bonus by one or all points.

For example, if a character with STR 16 is using a club, and he attempts to deliver nonlethal damage by taking a -4 penalty on his attack throw, then he can also choose to have his +3 STR damage bonus reduced to +2, +1, or +0.

In effect, he's "pulling" his strike.

 

[Water Bob]

If you're using a weapon that's meant for leathal damage to deliver nonlethal damage (the flat of your sword, let's say), doesn't it stand to reason that you are pulling your strike and your STR bonus should not apply to damage?

If you're using your fists in a brawl, your fists default to delivering nonlethal damage, so your STR bonus would be appropriate.

What do you think?

Thus, with your fists, you'd do 1d3 + STR mod nonlethal damage. But, with a weapon that normally does 1d8 + STR mod lethal damage, you'd do only 1d8 nonlethal damage.



And, another queston: If you've got a dagger, how do you deliver nonlethal damge with it? Using the pommel, not the blade?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

If you're using a weapon that's meant for leathal damage to deliver nonlethal damage (the flat of your sword, let's say), doesn't it stand to reason that you are pulling your strike and your STR bonus should not apply to damage?

Not really. I mean, you can seriously smack someone really, really hard with a belt / paddle / switch. You definitely get your arm into it.

And, another queston: If you've got a dagger, how do you deliver nonlethal damge with it? Using the pommel, not the blade?

Pommel, really shallow slashes that are more painful than deadly, intentionally missing so that your opponent has to dodge-but-not-as-hard-as-if-you-were-fighting-for-reals ...

(Remember how ... abstract ... hit points are.)

 

[Water Bob]

Not really. I mean, you can seriously smack someone really, really hard with a belt / paddle / switch. You definitely get your arm into it.

Agreed. But, I'd argue that the belt and paddle are intended for nonlethal damage.

It was with weapons created for lethal damage (when you have to take the -4 penalty on your attack) that I was thinking that the STR mod would not be applicable.

(Remember how ... abstract ... hit points are.)

They are and they aren't. I agree that they represent abstract wounds, but wounds they are because they take so long to heal.

If your character takes 22 hit points of damage, and it takes him several days of natural healing to heal that up, then he's taken "some sort of non-lethal wound" (abstract) that takes that long to heal.

The abstract part is exactly what wound he took. Maybe he twisted his ankle in defense of himself. Maybe his arm that bears his shield is bruised to the bone and so bad that he cannot touch it. Maybe a thin cut was drawn across his skin.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Except nonlethal damage heals in hours, not days.

 

[Water Bob]

Except nonlethal damage heals in hours, not days.

Yes, but we were talking about hit points. Nonlethal damage doesn't effect hit points.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yes, but we were talking about hit points. Nonlethal damage doesn't effect hit points.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you are making here.

Nonlethal damage done is otherwise equal to the number of hit points of damage done; nonlethal damage is still tracked against your hit point total (e.g., nonlethal >= current HP = unconscious), a spell that heals X points of "real" damage also heals X points of nonlethal damage, etc.

 

[Water Bob]

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you are making here.

Nonlethal damage done is otherwise equal to the number of hit points of damage done; nonlethal damage is still tracked against your hit point total (e.g., nonlethal >= current HP = unconscious), a spell that heals X points of "real" damage also heals X points of nonlethal damage, etc.

The point is that lethal damage and nonlethal damage are two different "things". You keep track of them separately. Inflicting nonlethal damage on a foe does not move his hit point total in any direction--it only raises his total of nonlethal damage. A lethal hit lowers the foe's hit point total but does nothing to raise the foe's sum of nonlethal damage.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yes, I see what you're saying.

But they're both measured in hit points (and even use the same scales), so anything that applies to the oddness of hit points similarly applies to nonlethal damage. Ergo, you can do nonlethal slashing and piercing damage with a knife, overcoming DR 5/Slashing.

Therefore, there's no mandate to describe it as being done with the pommel of the knife.