ExploderWizard
Hero
I must have missed the memo that announced unhorsing a rider was unimportant in jousting.
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Where's the lance?
- Thread starter FreeTheSlaves
- Start date
I must have missed the memo that announced unhorsing a rider was unimportant in jousting.
DracoSuave
First Post
I must have missed the memo that announced unhorsing a rider was unimportant in jousting.
That'd be the part of the memo that says that jousting isn't decided by the unhorsing, but by the hand-to-hand combat that immediately follows after the guy who unhorsed his opponent then gets off his horse.
The unhorsing part was just for show.
It sounds to me that the Lance is pretty darn similar to the longspear. One of the things about 4e is that the price of a characters effectiveness is attained through feats and power picks, not "I wanna item, and I want how cool it is built into it"
If you wanted a lance that is effective from horseback, I would represent this as a feat say...
Lance Use
You can Use a Longspear One handed while mounted. In addition when you do a charge attack you do an extra W damage
... or something like that (Im sure it can be built on). My point is, as long as the price is paid with character options rather than a pitance of gold, go for it! Lance away.
If you wanted a lance that is effective from horseback, I would represent this as a feat say...
Lance Use
You can Use a Longspear One handed while mounted. In addition when you do a charge attack you do an extra W damage
... or something like that (Im sure it can be built on). My point is, as long as the price is paid with character options rather than a pitance of gold, go for it! Lance away.
ExploderWizard
Hero
If you were participating in such a contest, would you rather be the one calmly dismounting to fight on foot or the poor bastard that was knocked from a charging horse in heavy armor who must now fight on with the possibilty of having to do so with an injury?
Just because the unhorsing isn't the final measure of victory doesn't mean that it isn't important.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Which was why I suggested it could be an aspect of the Mounted Combat feat. There were 2 reasons for that, 1) you probably take this feat anyway if you are really interested in exploiting mounts to any great degree, so it removes it from being a second feat you'd need to be fully competent, and 2) Mounted Combat as it is now is really not all that appealing a feat, it wouldn't hurt for it to have some extra benefit since it is really such a niche thing anyway.
There were different types of tournament fighting. One type of event was purely a jousting contest, other types might begin with a joust, followed by combat on foot or mounted with other weapons depending, assuming the guy who was unhorsed was still fit to continue. There were also mass combats which generally (but not always) opened with the two sides charging each other with lances. Again, the advantage to be gained would be getting a solid enough hit to entirely disable one of your side's opponents.
As for lances used on foot. Well, perhaps this is not part of the lexicon of romantic literature but it is QUITE well attested historically and was presumably a standard technique available to knights. It is a well-enough established factual situation that there are any number of historical figure lines featuring figures like "Knight, dismounted with lance." Sadly finding historical citations online amidst all the gaming site chatter is rather tricky.
DracoSuave
First Post
I think a good question is, what -exactly- do you want the lance to do that the current selections of spears cannot do? Are you looking for reach, mountedness, charge factor? What -exact- aspect of lanceness do you feel is missing that needs to be covered better?
If the lance is missing, what exact aspect of it is missing?
If the lance is missing, what exact aspect of it is missing?
FreeTheSlaves
Adventurer
Yes, that is a good question. One we can all help answer if you like.
Although we're talking historically about several lance types, I think the game would best be served with just the one. I just don’t think a large number of players would care for the nuances between jousting and main battle lances, heck most players have gotten along quite nicely without the lance in 4E for what, 3 years now?
So here are my characteristics:
• Usable one handed when mounted, so we’re talking about overland with plenty of space
• The length of the weapon extends well beyond the horse’s head
• Used at full effect in the initial charge
• Can dismount an incoming mounted rider
• While an initial weapon of choice, it then becomes unwieldy in close combat
• Is a weapon that facilitates breaking the enemy line
I don’t have my books so I can’t delve into mechanics, but here are the rule-sets that spring to mind:
• Requires mounted combat feat to access full features, this overture signifies the exclusive club that comes with the extra training.
• Charge and over-run
• Weapon qualities, including improvised weapon
• Athletics skill (?) for mounting/dismounting
• Push and prone conditions
• Falling damage
• Limited damage expressions
• Weapon/item breakage?
All of which is too complex with scope out of the wazoo to boot, so let’s cut things back until we can cut no more.
I like BobtheNob’s initial idea, coupled with Abdulalhazred’s idea to roll it into the mounted combat feat. I would like to split the above into traits inherent to the lance and special skills learned associated to the feat. Ideally 2 simple rules that combine to make the core of ‘lancyness’.
Sounds like a bit of homework though.
Although we're talking historically about several lance types, I think the game would best be served with just the one. I just don’t think a large number of players would care for the nuances between jousting and main battle lances, heck most players have gotten along quite nicely without the lance in 4E for what, 3 years now?
So here are my characteristics:
• Usable one handed when mounted, so we’re talking about overland with plenty of space
• The length of the weapon extends well beyond the horse’s head
• Used at full effect in the initial charge
• Can dismount an incoming mounted rider
• While an initial weapon of choice, it then becomes unwieldy in close combat
• Is a weapon that facilitates breaking the enemy line
I don’t have my books so I can’t delve into mechanics, but here are the rule-sets that spring to mind:
• Requires mounted combat feat to access full features, this overture signifies the exclusive club that comes with the extra training.
• Charge and over-run
• Weapon qualities, including improvised weapon
• Athletics skill (?) for mounting/dismounting
• Push and prone conditions
• Falling damage
• Limited damage expressions
• Weapon/item breakage?
All of which is too complex with scope out of the wazoo to boot, so let’s cut things back until we can cut no more.
I like BobtheNob’s initial idea, coupled with Abdulalhazred’s idea to roll it into the mounted combat feat. I would like to split the above into traits inherent to the lance and special skills learned associated to the feat. Ideally 2 simple rules that combine to make the core of ‘lancyness’.
Sounds like a bit of homework though.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I think for the actual weapon you can really go with the spear's stats. When mounted you get to pick any square in the mount's space to attack from, so reach is not really a consideration, you can attack an enemy that is in front of your charger and short of some monster with threatening reach you'll always get the first attack (I guess one could devise rules for a square of pikemen that would ready an attack to hit you first). Some kind of knockback would be cool. You hit the target and push him back some, after all a 1200 pound warhorse kinda does that... You'd be charging, which can be pumped up really nicely and that kind of optimization is useful on foot too.
DracoSuave
First Post
Pushing is an aspect of spears already.
I do like the idea of having a weapon that interacts with bull rush mind you.
I do like the idea of having a weapon that interacts with bull rush mind you.
Aenghus
Explorer
I think one reason why the lance isn't statted yet is that in all editions I saw most PCs who specialised in mounted combat disappointed as they were forced to park their horse outside the dungeon or building the adventure was in, or cry over the ashes of the latest in a long line of deceased mounts. There are a huge number of possibilities that sideline or prohibit bringing a mount. Even with summoned mounts I saw this happen.
Obviously it depends on exactly what set of adventures the DM anticipates running, but a mount-focused PC can be seen as either forcing the DM to pander to him, or becoming a sullen, unwilling pedestrian for much of the average adventure.
Now a particular campaign could have a mounted combat PC obtain a special survivable mount of some sort, but this is special treatment that can't be anticipated in the average campaign. I'm more familiar with the opposite, where any riding animals or animal companions died regularly and inevitably.
This is the reason I don't think a lot of detail has been paid to this area. A longspear is close enough to a lance for most campaigns, I would allow one to be used one-handed by a mounted character, esp with the mounted combat feat. The greatspear provides a superior weapon that could serve as a lance.
Obviously it depends on exactly what set of adventures the DM anticipates running, but a mount-focused PC can be seen as either forcing the DM to pander to him, or becoming a sullen, unwilling pedestrian for much of the average adventure.
Now a particular campaign could have a mounted combat PC obtain a special survivable mount of some sort, but this is special treatment that can't be anticipated in the average campaign. I'm more familiar with the opposite, where any riding animals or animal companions died regularly and inevitably.
This is the reason I don't think a lot of detail has been paid to this area. A longspear is close enough to a lance for most campaigns, I would allow one to be used one-handed by a mounted character, esp with the mounted combat feat. The greatspear provides a superior weapon that could serve as a lance.
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