D&D 4E What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[Argyle King]

Okay, here's my $.02:

Play what you like.

4e doesn't suck. Pathfinder doesn't suck. OD&D doesn't suck. They are all good games. If they are what you are after, they can be great games. But they are all different, and any attempt to explore those differences is taken by some to be a dire insult. They also all have things in common, and any attempt to explore those commonalities is taken by others to be a dire insult.

A few other people want to claim that X is objectively better than Y ("an evolution", if you will). But neither X nor Y is "objectively better". That's the old cognitive dissonance raising its ugly head, making us want to justify our choices.

Our choices need no justification.

Play what you like.



RC

I agree, and that was part of what I was getting at with some of my posts. There are things that 4E does very well. However, there are also things I feel that 4E doesn't do well; for those, I play other games.


I think where the problem comes in for some people is when you are playing X, and you are happy with how it works. Then you are told 'ze game will remain ze same," so you try X and find that it doesn't work as well as it did before. Then, you ask for help and get treated as though the problem is with you; that you're just not using the system right or something like that.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[Akaiku]

I guess in the instance that your melee striker has no Constitution and is constantly surrounding themselves with enemies, this COULD happen. But, what the heck were the other party members doing? If those monsters are ignoring the defender and controller, they should be getting tied up and killed while they're paying attention to the striker. It shouldn't be happening every fight unless the striker just isn't working with the group at all.

Are all controllers supposed to be not targeted? It's infrequent at heroic levels that a single defender can stop the traditional 5 or 6 enemies all the time from getting to whoever they feel like in say an outdoors encounter. Or a large cave. Or pretty much anything without a convenient choke point to hold.

Plus, even waiting for cleric healing word (never mind not every party has a cleric) you run across low rolls, still 3 to heal to full often enough. 4 points of con is only 2 healing surges ever and one to surge value, but 4 to max hp so a tremendously minor extra to be healed with bonus healing.

 

[Dead Scribe]

Are all controllers supposed to be not targeted

Eh? The discussion was 15-minute adventuring days. Unless you're arguing that it's a regular occurence in most combats for one or more party members to lose all their HP, thus necessitating that they spend all their healing surges... then I'm not sure where you're going with any of this.

In my experience, if you go by the guidelines provided in the books, that kind of massive damage generally only gets dealt out by very difficult encounters, which the DM controls, or bad luck. Luck is beyond the control of the players and DM, but statistically speaking it should be uncommon for players to be that badly hurt by a single encounter. If it IS that common it suggests either the player is being very reckless, or the DM is throwing exceptionally tough encounters at players on a regular basis. In either case, having to rest a lot should be sort of expected.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Are all controllers supposed to be not targeted? It's infrequent at heroic levels that a single defender can stop the traditional 5 or 6 enemies all the time from getting to whoever they feel like in say an outdoors encounter. Or a large cave. Or pretty much anything without a convenient choke point to hold.

Plus, even waiting for cleric healing word (never mind not every party has a cleric) you run across low rolls, still 3 to heal to full often enough. 4 points of con is only 2 healing surges ever and one to surge value, but 4 to max hp so a tremendously minor extra to be healed with bonus healing.

No, not really. It is hard to generalize. Controllers have usually been considered back rankers and they mostly have the least hit points and surges, but nothing is universally true in 4e. Druids for instance are front line controllers with a secondary in striker or leader depending on the build. They're designed to wildshape, head into the fray, and lay around effects that pin the enemy down. Outside of wildshape they generally manifest their leadery subrole more, but they have plenty of good control things like summons too.

You can also certainly build a front line 'melee' wizard. Use Staff of Defense and Staff Expertise, and keep your CON up some. With a high int and spending a few resources now and then you can have an AC that is nicely competitive with any defender. There are plenty of good close spells you can lay around you, plus feats like Arcane Reach.

One final observation is that it isn't the defender's job (or good tactics) to stop ALL enemy engagement of other characters. There's no point in ending a day of adventuring with the fighter at 0 surges and the wizard sitting in back with his 6 intact. The job of the fighter is to be traffic cop and punish the enemy when they DO attack the wizard. That way the fighter can 'tank' a proportion of damage, and the 'squishy' characters can pull some hits when they need to.

The real tough ones are melee rogues and melee rangers. A Brutal Scoundrel is going to want to get right in and flank when he can, but the bad guys are going to make him pay for that with his limited surges. The defender should be pulling enemies off him as much as possible, but really the player needs to be smart and not hang around in a crowd. Things like Cloak of the Mountebank are handy there (teleport you after being hit, prevents Slobbo's brothers from joining the party).

 

[Akaiku]

Eh? The discussion was 15-minute adventuring days. Unless you're arguing that it's a regular occurence in most combats for one or more party members to lose all their HP, thus necessitating that they spend all their healing surges... then I'm not sure where you're going with any of this.

In my experience, if you go by the guidelines provided in the books, that kind of massive damage generally only gets dealt out by very difficult encounters, which the DM controls, or bad luck. Luck is beyond the control of the players and DM, but statistically speaking it should be uncommon for players to be that badly hurt by a single encounter. If it IS that common it suggests either the player is being very reckless, or the DM is throwing exceptionally tough encounters at players on a regular basis. In either case, having to rest a lot should be sort of expected.

In the game I'm in a within level + or - 1 damage dealer using new damage math can knock 1/4 to 1/3 of a player's hp off if they are squishy class hp. (we are level 5)

I do say that it's actually a fairly common occurrence assuming 3-4 monsters can sidestep the defender. In my experience, without a choke point, a defender can hold 2 guys most of the time. A 6 foe encounter isn't unreasonable for a party of 5, so 4 monsters hitting even half the time means a person is bloodied in one round.

 

[Saracenus]

RC,

I have started using the Ignore List function this year (on a very select list of folks) and my blood only boils over once and a while now. I don't see what they are saying, I don't respond. It is amazing how peaceful that is.

I also concur, play what you like to play. DM what you love to DM.

D&D is D&D.

Saracenus out!

 

[Kerranin]

In the game I'm in a within level + or - 1 damage dealer using new damage math can knock 1/4 to 1/3 of a player's hp off if they are squishy class hp. (we are level 5)

I do say that it's actually a fairly common occurrence assuming 3-4 monsters can sidestep the defender. In my experience, without a choke point, a defender can hold 2 guys most of the time. A 6 foe encounter isn't unreasonable for a party of 5, so 4 monsters hitting even half the time means a person is bloodied in one round.

I agree with others in saying that a single defender can't be expected to keep everybody else safe. You do still need a balance to the group - especially between ranged/melee type characters - too few melee characters leads to the ranged characters being attacked early and frequently by melee opponents. (Leader characters can often help with this)

What can also help of course is being able to move enemies around, preferably back next to the defender.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree with others in saying that a single defender can't be expected to keep everybody else safe. You do still need a balance to the group - especially between ranged/melee type characters - too few melee characters leads to the ranged characters being attacked early and frequently by melee opponents. (Leader characters can often help with this)

What can also help of course is being able to move enemies around, preferably back next to the defender.

Yeah, not JUST leaders. The controller blocks a couple monsters or slows them down for a round or two, the leader moves a couple of them into a spot where they're stuck or too far away to get to the back rank for a round, and many strikers can use an encounter power to slow down or debuff an enemy a bit. So if you have 6 monsters you can probably hold off 3 of them, the defender can stick to 2, and if one gets past, well, that isn't a disaster. If it looks like the party will get swarmed hard then someone unleashes a daily. Controller/leader daily powers can often foil a couple monsters for quite a while, or otherwise fix things up.

While 4e has roles that are somewhat like those in certain MMORPGs they are far less absolute. A WoW tank is supposed to take ALL the enemy attacks, this is not even close to the ideal in 4e, nor is a cleric a WoW healer, etc. Sometimes the barbarian has to pull in some hits and block a monster and defend for a round, etc. I think 4e did a pretty good job in this respect, no character's 'job' is just one thing. Each encounter will play out differently and each character will use its abilities in different ways.