Hitting one's self question

[Akaiku]

Where, if anywhere, does it say that you can or can not hit yourself with a melee basic attack. Same with a targeted burst?

This comes up occasionally with the dominate status, the hypnotism power and similar.

 

[the Jester]

1. You can target a creature within range with an attack.

2. Typically, you are a creature within range.

 

[fba827]

In general, sure, you can (barring the Bag of Rats situation).

However, specifically with regards to the dominated status, i can't help but think of a specific line in the rules compendium (p230-231)

(small excerpt) "If the dominator tries to force the creature to throw itself into a pit or move into some form of hindering terrain, the creature gets a saving throw to resist entering the terrain"

While this makes no mention of targeting ones self with an attack, I don't think it is unreasonable to say if you're going to get a save for "entering hindering terrain," it is not a stretch to say you should get a save for what would be even worse than that: self-inflicted injury.

edit:
Though I think I'd have to actually look at it on a case by case basis to see what the actual interaction was and why since it sounds like a "gimmick" akin to bag of rats that would annoy me and my delicate sensibilities.

As an addendum, the creature being attacked must be a valid target type. So, specifically if you are using a burst centered on yourself but the burst targets 'enemies in burst' you don't count as your own enemy (nor your own ally for that matter).

 

[Akaiku]

In general, sure, you can (barring the Bag of Rats situation).

Auto violate palidin mark. With certain pali's, that means weakened as well as damage, plus they might hit themselfs too. There are several builds that make violating marks a really bad idea, being able to make an enemy standing next to the fighter do it with an at will with no further setup seems a bit overpowered.

 

[wlmartin]

Where, if anywhere, does it say that you can or can not hit yourself with a melee basic attack. Same with a targeted burst?

This comes up occasionally with the dominate status, the hypnotism power and similar.

As far as I am aware, Dominated creates only get access to your At-Will Powers and these can be used against any creature, often an ally. Suggesting that you would never attack an ally expands to the you would never attack yourself.

I think it is only previous editions (pre 4e) that allow a Saving Throw if attacking ones self, so i think it is entirely possible although I would recommend that any DM presented with this decide for themselves since it wouldn't break the game if it went one way or another.

Such rules could include
a) A saving throw allowed immediately before the attempt
b) A cumulative bonus to future saving throws
c) A saving throw allowed to ignore the attempt only, if successful then still dominated and the creature can not attempt to do it again this turn but gets another try and another action

 

[MrBeens]

As far as I am aware, Dominated creates only get access to your At-Will Powers and these can be used against any creature, often an ally. Suggesting that you would never attack an ally expands to the you would never attack yourself.

I think it is only previous editions (pre 4e) that allow a Saving Throw if attacking ones self, so i think it is entirely possible although I would recommend that any DM presented with this decide for themselves since it wouldn't break the game if it went one way or another.

Such rules could include
a) A saving throw allowed immediately before the attempt
b) A cumulative bonus to future saving throws
c) A saving throw allowed to ignore the attempt only, if successful then still dominated and the creature can not attempt to do it again this turn but gets another try and another action

There are numerous powers that explicitly state that a create can attack it's self as part of the attack, so this would suggest to me that a vanilla melee attack cannot.
You can however catch yourself in the burst of an area attack.

 

[delericho]

As far as I am aware, Dominated creates only get access to your At-Will Powers and these can be used against any creature, often an ally. Suggesting that you would never attack an ally expands to the you would never attack yourself.

The 4e definition of "your allies" specifically excludes yourself.

In general, if a character wanted to attack himself (for whatever mad reason), I can see absolutely no reason not to allow it. Likewise, if a character wants to allow another character to attack him, again I see no reason not to allow it. In fact, I'd consider any successful attack an automatic critical hit (as per coup de grace).

(This last is to handle the handful of abusive cases of "when you get attacked, you actually heal X hit points".)

In the case of dominate or similar powers, I would be inclined to either allow a save to avoid it (as per forced movement into hazardous terrain) or require a standard attack roll vs normal defense. Either the dominator overcomes the character's will to make him want to attack himself (save), or the dominator forces the character to attack himself, but the battle of wills makes it an uncertain thing.

Or something like that, anyway. Also, be sure to check the specific power definition - some of them may explicitly call out whether the target can be made to attack himself or not.