How to punish a metagamer?

[Dingo333]

You are making Charm Person out to be "turn person into slave"

All you get is you think the caster is your trusted friend and ally. So your trusted friend and ally comes up to you and says, "Hey bud, the orphanage I work at needs some green to stay open, can you spare anything?" you look and see you have $100 on you, you are a tightwad, but your friend needs that job (insert sob story here) and give him $75. 3 hours later, do you wonder why you gave him 3/4 of your money, not likely. HE IS YOUR TRUSTED FRIEND AND ALLY, YOU HAVE NO REASON NOT TO BELIEVE HIM.

and [MENTION=40166]prosfilaes[/MENTION]. So you go out downtown. As you are walking, someone is shouting in a language you do not know and pointing wildly. Can you tell the difference between "Help a T-rex is chasing me" and "Miss, you dropped your purse"

"A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells."

There is no (almost) way the fighter would have known what spell was being cast and, as he DID NOT SAVE, has no idea a spell was even cast at him. For all he knows, the wizard was casting alarm on their campsite, or calling a demon to eat all their souls.

and yes, dick moves. Threatening someone, attempting (only because DM used rewind to stop it) to kill a helpless person, not by accident, but premeditated. Hmm, most places that gives you somewhere between life in prison and the death penalty. Now, controlling someone through a substance (magic is a substance) [also, this is not entirely true as no one was controlled], Stealing (which the item was given freely) and then lying. All that amounts to 5, maybe 10 years. Which is the greater of 2 evils?

Call me what you like, but the rules are as stiff as ever, none have been bent in my posts. All is perfectly right by the rules.

And as for the original question. How to punish a metagamer? DO NOT PLAY WITH HIM

 

[prosfilaes]

You are making Charm Person out to be "turn person into slave"

All you get is you think the caster is your trusted friend and ally. So your trusted friend and ally comes up to you and says, "Hey bud, the orphanage I work at needs some green to stay open, can you spare anything?" you look and see you have $100 on you, you are a tightwad, but your friend needs that job (insert sob story here) and give him $75. 3 hours later, do you wonder why you gave him 3/4 of your money, not likely. HE IS YOUR TRUSTED FRIEND AND ALLY, YOU HAVE NO REASON NOT TO BELIEVE HIM.

Sure you have reason not to believe him. He's no longer your trusted friend and ally; you did something you wouldn't have done without without magic; it doesn't take much paranoia to conclude that the wizard used magic to make you do that.

and @prosfilaes . So you go out downtown. As you are walking, someone is shouting in a language you do not know and pointing wildly. Can you tell the difference between "Help a T-rex is chasing me" and "Miss, you dropped your purse"

Yes, because there are no T-rex on my world. Context is king.

There is no (almost) way the fighter would have known what spell was being cast and, as he DID NOT SAVE, has no idea a spell was even cast at him. For all he knows, the wizard was casting alarm on their campsite, or calling a demon to eat all their souls.

Nobody is going to stop in the middle of an argument to cast alarm. If he was calling a demon to hurt them, killing him was justified. And again, it's not about whether the fighter could have known with certainty what the spell was, but whether a little paranoia could have made the guess.

Now, controlling someone through a substance (magic is a substance) [also, this is not entirely true as no one was controlled], Stealing (which the item was given freely) and then lying. All that amounts to 5, maybe 10 years.

In any jurisdiction that recognizes magic, casting a spell on an unwilling target would be battery. It's a little more complex, since he didn't own the item, but that could make this robbery which is 25 to life in California, not counting any aggravating factors of using mind-controlling magic (which would be at least equal to that of using a gun.)

Which is the greater of 2 evils?

So what? It doesn't make him a metagamer, nor does it mean that what was done to him was fair.

 

[tylermalan]

I cannot believe this thread still exists, and people have been actively debating the nuances of Charm Person in order to shed light on whether or not an imaginary character would feel/be justified in his actions, as if to say that if he IS justified, it somehow justifies the social choices of the jerk who is controlling him. I know people like to argue about D&D, but this thread should have been over the moment it was started, as the answer to the original problem (which is a social problem) was addressed so long ago.

 

[Walking Dad]

...

And as for the original question. How to punish a metagamer? DO NOT PLAY WITH HIM

I'm a metagamer:

• If the heroes meet first time in a tavern, my character will bond with them to make an adventurer party, not the NPCs.
• If I find an item more suited to another character, I will let him have it, even if I don't know in-play each of us will find something later.
• If the DM introduces an adventure with a not so strong hook for my characters backstory, my character will be swayed more easily to take it than he should.

So, no one should play with me?

 

[Walking Dad]

I cannot believe this thread still exists, and people have been actively debating the nuances of Charm Person in order to shed light on whether or not an imaginary character would feel/be justified in his actions, as if to say that if he IS justified, it somehow justifies the social choices of the jerk who is controlling him. I know people like to argue about D&D, but this thread should have been over the moment it was started, as the answer to the original problem (which is a social problem) was addressed so long ago.

I argue that it was neither meta-gaming, nor a jerk reaction. Maybe it was the later. The fighter player should have just left...

 

[tylermalan]

I argue that it was neither meta-gaming, nor a jerk reaction. Maybe it was the later. The fighter player should have just left...

The point is that there is no way, based upon the OP, to know just who was being a jerk in this case, as obviously the OP is biased towards either himself or his friends and against the outsider. Regardless, none of that matters. What matters is that two or more people don't get along (for whatever reason). The answer is so simple and has nothing to do with the game: do not play with players that you don't get along with.

 

[prosfilaes]

The point is that there is no way, based upon the OP, to know just who was being a jerk in this case, as obviously the OP is biased towards either himself or his friends and against the outsider. Regardless, none of that matters. What matters is that two or more people don't get along (for whatever reason). The answer is so simple and has nothing to do with the game: do not play with players that you don't get along with.

But we only have one scene. We don't know if they don't get along. Furthermore, if your own behavior is causing the problem, then it's better to fix your behavior then to get rid of everyone you get into a conflict with.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I am a bit confused here.

Killing a fellow PC in his sleep is no fun but hiding behind a charm spell and the rather weak arguement that the fighter would have no idea what happened is fun?

The arguements against the fighter dont even make sense. I dont like you, I wont give you something, suddenly I find myself liking you a lot and giving you what you want? Combine that with knowing your one of those mage people and even the thickest brick of a fighter is going to figure out he was magically charmed/manipulated/tricked in some manner. Once that realization comes the fighter has every right to be paranoid, wonder what else the mage can do, and remove the threat. I mean if the mage has no problem casting baneful spells on me just to get some trinket then who knows what they will do.

Sure the player can be annoying as a metagamer but the rest of the party doesnt sound all that great either here.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

The point is that there is no way, based upon the OP, to know just who was being a jerk in this case, as obviously the OP is biased towards either himself or his friends and against the outsider. Regardless, none of that matters. What matters is that two or more people don't get along (for whatever reason). The answer is so simple and has nothing to do with the game: do not play with players that you don't get along with.

How cant he know? He woke up the next day and realized that for no reason what so ever the mage became his BFF. Even more strange to the fighter he doesnt think the mage is his BFF any more.

Sounds like a rather easy deductive process to figure out the sneaky mage must have done something.

 

[tylermalan]

But we only have one scene. We don't know if they don't get along. Furthermore, if your own behavior is causing the problem, then it's better to fix your behavior then to get rid of everyone you get into a conflict with.

Uhhh... what.

First, we can reasonably assume that they don't get along. The OP stated that they can't kick him out for fear of being blackballed. If that's the only reason they haven't kicked him out yet, you think they're all best friends? Again, I'm astounded at how many people pay attention to the in-game "scene" more than the obvious social interactions at work here. I've said it before and I'll say it again - this has nothing to do with the game.

And second, the OP didn't ask for a therapy session. He (or she) came to us with a problem player and asked how to take care of him. I'm not about to delve into the OP's psychological state to analyze whether or not he or she is really the one who is at fault - I'm just going to help the OP. Why would we NOT take the OP on his or her word that the fighter is truly the problem player? I also think it's obvious that the OP doesn't consider the Mage to be a problem - this may be because they're friends, but that's beside the point (or, rather, that's entirely the point).

How cant he know? He woke up the next day and realized that for no reason what so ever the mage became his BFF. Even more strange to the fighter he doesnt think the mage is his BFF any more.

Sounds like a rather easy deductive process to figure out the sneaky mage must have done something.

I really kinda feel like you just read my post up to the third comma... and nothing after. As I mentioned earlier in this very post, this has nothing to do with the game. When I say
"in this case," I'm not referring to the imaginary case of fighter vs. wizard concerning magic items in-game. I'm referring to player vs. player out-of-game, where the OP and the mage are clearly friends, the fighter is a jerk, and the group doesn't like him. Don't play with people that you don't like or can't get along with.