qstor
Adventurer
I'm posting this on ENworld, dragonsfoot, paizo and the troll lord forums
I’ve been really on the fence the last few months about 4th edition. I have fun playing with some people at my FLGS. But I think I’d have more fun playing another edition/game/Pathfinder/3.x /2e/1e…whatever with the same group of people rather THAN 4e. From the beginning I got the books. I was half hardily ridiculing it. Then I started playing Living Forgotten Realms with a group of folks and I really enjoy their company. So I played it for a while. Some friends said well if you don’t think of it AS D&D then you might enjoy it. Well that’s what WOTC calls it. But it’s NOT D&D to me. The powers, the use of trading cards in play, the “everything” fits if its D&D so now there’s Dragonborn and orcs in the Dragonlance setting…these aren’t D&D to me. So…I’ve been torn. I want to “try” to like 4e even after all this time but it’s getting to the point where I can’t, and it pains me.
So the main point of this is, I’ve been hearing a lot the past few months about Mike Mearls column’s which are called Legends and Lore. I figured I’d see were the direction of the game that I love was going. I didn’t even finish skimming them all when I saw some things that have irked me and I wanted to point these out.
1st edition
“I have never played this edition: 43.4%” from the poll at
Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (What's With the Polls?)
Umm I see a big number of people that voted on the poll and that are reading his column’s are younger than me. And don’t have the experience of editions apart from 4e, which I think is a bad thing. I’ve played 4e and other editions. I have to say that was a good thing in my mind. Like I test drove the edition.
“4th Edition took another route, by creating more classes with easy access to healing. The bard, shaman, rune priest, and others can match a cleric in healing, or at least come close enough that the party doesn’t feel too threatened.”
Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (The Problem of Clerics)
Ah…in other editions the bard and the paladin can heal. I think the statement above is a general statement about 4e that bends the truth about the other editions.
“Making healing an optional resource is a tricky proposition, one that offers many obvious routes that conceal follow-up problems. However, solving this issue would go a long way toward creating a game where players are free to create the characters they want.”
Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (The Problem of Clerics)
Ummm solving this ISSUE, and people complain that 4e is like an MMO and GURPS is too lethal. NO you solve that issue by making 5e a PURE MMO and you lose more people from playing D&D. Healing needs to be part of the game just as it is in other rpg’s. You don’t need an abstraction where BANG my character heals itself on a whim. That’s kind of like healing surges and 2nd wind in 4e is to me. The cleric and other spell casting classes provide tons of healing. Other editions didn’t have the characters heal themselves and that from the beginning was a big issue for me with 4e. Go backward’s with this and don’t SOLVE it.
“The interesting thing to me is that every edition of D&D supports all of these elements in one form or another. 4th Edition has the most different magic system, but it still features daily powers that function in essentially the same way.”
Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (The Core of D&D)
Mearls lists some of them. My gripe is on the word ALL.
“Classes as the basic framework for what a character can do.”
In 4e powers abstract what your character can do. The framework is the powers IMHO. Not the class itself. The class isn’t the framework. The framework is the power selection the player makes.
“Saving throws as a mechanic for evading danger.”
Ummm…in 4e not so much. The saving throws are NOW rolls made by the DM against defenses NOT rolls made by the player to avoid damage. The saving throw rolls made by the player are basically 50/50 instead of a greater chance of danger. Try having a fighter in 1e-3e and tell me how much of a chance there is to avoid a spell. NOT much. That’s a saving throw to me.
“Fire-and-forget” magic, with spellcasters expending a spell when casting”
Again 4e doesn’t support this. One word POWERS instead of spells. Vancian magic is gone.
Save a spot on the soapbox for me.
I’ve been really on the fence the last few months about 4th edition. I have fun playing with some people at my FLGS. But I think I’d have more fun playing another edition/game/Pathfinder/3.x /2e/1e…whatever with the same group of people rather THAN 4e. From the beginning I got the books. I was half hardily ridiculing it. Then I started playing Living Forgotten Realms with a group of folks and I really enjoy their company. So I played it for a while. Some friends said well if you don’t think of it AS D&D then you might enjoy it. Well that’s what WOTC calls it. But it’s NOT D&D to me. The powers, the use of trading cards in play, the “everything” fits if its D&D so now there’s Dragonborn and orcs in the Dragonlance setting…these aren’t D&D to me. So…I’ve been torn. I want to “try” to like 4e even after all this time but it’s getting to the point where I can’t, and it pains me.
So the main point of this is, I’ve been hearing a lot the past few months about Mike Mearls column’s which are called Legends and Lore. I figured I’d see were the direction of the game that I love was going. I didn’t even finish skimming them all when I saw some things that have irked me and I wanted to point these out.
1st edition
“I have never played this edition: 43.4%” from the poll at
Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (What's With the Polls?)
Umm I see a big number of people that voted on the poll and that are reading his column’s are younger than me. And don’t have the experience of editions apart from 4e, which I think is a bad thing. I’ve played 4e and other editions. I have to say that was a good thing in my mind. Like I test drove the edition.
“4th Edition took another route, by creating more classes with easy access to healing. The bard, shaman, rune priest, and others can match a cleric in healing, or at least come close enough that the party doesn’t feel too threatened.”
Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (The Problem of Clerics)
Ah…in other editions the bard and the paladin can heal. I think the statement above is a general statement about 4e that bends the truth about the other editions.
“Making healing an optional resource is a tricky proposition, one that offers many obvious routes that conceal follow-up problems. However, solving this issue would go a long way toward creating a game where players are free to create the characters they want.”
Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (The Problem of Clerics)
Ummm solving this ISSUE, and people complain that 4e is like an MMO and GURPS is too lethal. NO you solve that issue by making 5e a PURE MMO and you lose more people from playing D&D. Healing needs to be part of the game just as it is in other rpg’s. You don’t need an abstraction where BANG my character heals itself on a whim. That’s kind of like healing surges and 2nd wind in 4e is to me. The cleric and other spell casting classes provide tons of healing. Other editions didn’t have the characters heal themselves and that from the beginning was a big issue for me with 4e. Go backward’s with this and don’t SOLVE it.
“The interesting thing to me is that every edition of D&D supports all of these elements in one form or another. 4th Edition has the most different magic system, but it still features daily powers that function in essentially the same way.”
Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (The Core of D&D)
Mearls lists some of them. My gripe is on the word ALL.
“Classes as the basic framework for what a character can do.”
In 4e powers abstract what your character can do. The framework is the powers IMHO. Not the class itself. The class isn’t the framework. The framework is the power selection the player makes.
“Saving throws as a mechanic for evading danger.”
Ummm…in 4e not so much. The saving throws are NOW rolls made by the DM against defenses NOT rolls made by the player to avoid damage. The saving throw rolls made by the player are basically 50/50 instead of a greater chance of danger. Try having a fighter in 1e-3e and tell me how much of a chance there is to avoid a spell. NOT much. That’s a saving throw to me.
“Fire-and-forget” magic, with spellcasters expending a spell when casting”
Again 4e doesn’t support this. One word POWERS instead of spells. Vancian magic is gone.
Save a spot on the soapbox for me.
