How much backlash is too much?

[JamesonCourage]

I think that's the key to this whole thing: if you had a PC who pulled the stuff this paladin pulled, would you expect the town to get involved?

Personally, I think if the situations were reversed (the NPC was the Evil swordsage, and the PC was the paladin), then I'd bet the players would expect to get the town on their side.

"Our paladin companion (PC) walked into the bar -crazed and near-fatally wounded from encountering an Evil portal and witnessing some of his friends die- and grabbed the Evil swordsage with his hands (his hands were clearly away from his blade). He then proceeded to yell at him, asking him if he was the cause, and rhetorically asking what he had done. The Evil swordsage -who was responsible for opening the portal, and just chilling eating in a tavern- then teleports behind our paladin companion, and murders him. He then proceeds to go back to eating his lunch, not even blinking."

Barring a particularly corrupt governement (or town authority structure), in this situation, I think my players would expect the government to help them. For sure. Now, they'd accept a corrupt government, but if things had pointed to the past that the town was looking after its own, they'd expect help. There's obviously a Hero and a Villain in the above story, and the Evil swordsage isn't the Hero.

As always, play what you like

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I think that's the key to this whole thing: if you had a PC who pulled the stuff this paladin pulled, would you expect the town to get involved?

Yes. And if I were running the game then they would. Either directly or indirectly.

If the players knew the victim was a paladin then I think that there is more than a fair chance that so do the townsfolk. So, umm, not a good argument there either - it does not sound like he was some kind of 'secret paladin'. It was a matter of a guy who had unleashed a swarm of zombies murdering a known paladin.

The Auld Grump, and more reasons why I don't like 4e as well, I am sorry to say.

*EDIT* Whoa, I pretty much echoed Jameson Courage's post there... right down to the passage quoted.... Am I correct in associating Jameson Courage with Bottled Bravery?

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Bottled bravery, whiskey courage, liquid valor....

The Auld Grump

 

[haakon1]

I believe the term you are looking for is "Dutch Courage".

Dutch courage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clearly, it has nothing to do with our fellow gamer "Jameson Courage" as Jameson is an Irish name, not a Dutch one.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I believe the term you are looking for is "Dutch Courage".

Dutch courage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clearly, it has nothing to do with our fellow gamer "Jameson Courage" as Jameson is an Irish name, not a Dutch one.

Trust me, whiskey courage et ali have been terms used for many years as well. There is a folk song titled Whiskey Courage, as well as at least two country songs, but it does not seem to have made its way to You Tube, else I would torment folks with it.

The Auld Grump

 

[JamesonCourage]

Hmm, and I don't drink. I think "Courage" might be misleading, as might an Irish name...

 

[Saeviomagy]

"Our paladin companion (PC) walked into the bar -crazed and near-fatally wounded from encountering an Evil portal and witnessing some of his friends die- and grabbed the Evil swordsage with his hands (his hands were clearly away from his blade). He then proceeded to yell at him, asking him if he was the cause, and rhetorically asking what he had done. The Evil swordsage -who was responsible for opening the portal, and just chilling eating in a tavern- then teleports behind our paladin companion, and murders him. He then proceeds to go back to eating his lunch, not even blinking."

"Dude, you totally attacked that guy in a bar. We don't even know it was them that did it! After all, one of THEIR buddies was zombified too."

"You can't just go around using detect evil and killing everyone who lights up."

"He DID give you a chance to surrender."

"Maybe you should heal up next time you're going to confront someone you think is evil and dangerous."

"Who ever heard of a paladin who flips out when they see a zombie anyway?"

TBH, I CAN imagine the scenario happening with a PC, but I seriously doubt that my continuing plot would be "The evil NPC is killed by local law enforcement beyond all hope of resurrection, and you, the PCs, don't contribute at all". Or even "a mob forms and runs the evil NPC out of town, and you, the PCs, don't contribute at all".

 

[JamesonCourage]

"Dude, you totally attacked that guy in a bar. We don't even know it was them that did it! After all, one of THEIR buddies was zombified too."

"We don't know he did it, but we suspect he did. I think his murdering the near-fatally injured paladin who has been helping protect the town is a bad sign."

"You can't just go around using detect evil and killing everyone who lights up."

"And he didn't. We've seen that group in the past, and while there's been tension, we have a history of not attacking that group, and our dead paladin companion is no exception. He confronted an Evil character about a demonic portal that he suspected he was responsible for opening. He didn't attack, and he was murdered for it."

"He DID give you a chance to surrender."

Yep, corrupt government. Totally within the bounds of what's possible. I've used them before. But this is just an excuse.

"Maybe you should heal up next time you're going to confront someone you think is evil and dangerous."

Again, if this is the government, it's a corrupt one. They aren't looking into the well-being of the populace, they're looking to get paid off.

"Who ever heard of a paladin who flips out when they see a zombie anyway?"

When it overwhelms good forces, and he thinks the town is in mortal danger? Who thinks paladins are unfeeling sociopaths? I mean, that's the Evil swordsage right there, not the paladin.

TBH, I CAN imagine the scenario happening with a PC, but I seriously doubt that my continuing plot would be "The evil NPC is killed by local law enforcement beyond all hope of resurrection, and you, the PCs, don't contribute at all". Or even "a mob forms and runs the evil NPC out of town, and you, the PCs, don't contribute at all".

A lot of groups feel like getting the law involved is contributing. If something is above their pay grade, going to the person (or usually people) who can handle it is a contribution. It's no different from scouting, in the sense that you've spotted danger, and you're reporting it to the guy who has the muscle to deal with it.

You can run it any way you'd like, if this was you, and that's cool if that's what your group liked. But your above reasoning isn't something that refutes what I said. My players would (and I do) find the first couple of responses really weak, and the next few just indicate a corrupt government (which is definitely fine to use). But to say that the government wouldn't get involved if it was flipped around? I really disagree unless the government is corrupt (which is possible). It's in the community's best interest to stop the Villain. And that most certainly wasn't the paladin.

As always, play what you like

 

[Saeviomagy]

If the players knew the victim was a paladin then I think that there is more than a fair chance that so do the townsfolk. So, umm, not a good argument there either - it does not sound like he was some kind of 'secret paladin'. It was a matter of a guy who had unleashed a swarm of zombies murdering a known paladin.

I don't know about you, but I don't typically play any NPCs but those who are supposed to be super-genuises as necessarily reading character sheets, and as a player I would refer to someone as a "paladin" if they're a holy guy who hits people (or proclaims himself to be a paladin), because usually I don't go looking up NPC stats for the adventure that I'm playing.

And that's all irrelevant because this is the DM describing someone as a Paladin, so he has explicit metagame knowledge, not actually giving us the information that he gives his players. Unless he really did introduce him as "thomas, the lawful-good level 5 paladin".

 

[Enkhidu]

...I think that's the key to this whole thing: if you had a PC who pulled the stuff this paladin pulled, would you expect the town to get involved?

Define "involved."

I can't imagine the town using force either way. I can, however, see some townsfolk turning a blind eye due to profit motive, or because they hated "that uppity knight." I can also see other folks closing their doors to the PC (and his associates) and being confrontational for any number of reasons. Most, however, will be motivated by fear (from one power group or the other), and simply want to stay the hell out of it.

On the other hand, I can see all sorts of hooks for adventure - that LG group meant to be the foil for the PCs is now assuredly an enemy with whom the PCs will have a very public showdown. Enemies of the paladin's order will likely come calling, as will allies (for vastly different reasons, of course). And the reputation that the swordsage has earned will be a two-edged sword, if I don't miss my guess.

But I go back to my real point - the PCs just crossed into black hat territory. That can make for a fine game (think Yojimbo, or a Fist Full of Dollars), especially if that paladin turns out to have skeletons in the closet, as it were. But ignoring that the PCs just embraced their role as bad guys does a disservice to both the campaign world and the present group's choices.