Pathfinder 1E Could Pathfinder take D&D's place...

[enrious]

Whoa, this whole time I thought cyderak was lisping in Morse Code.

 

[Pentius]

4e would be a great system

if it didn't call itself D&D

while I try to live by the ideaology that "D&D is what you make it" (meaning D&D is not a brandname but a state of mind) I feel asthough having rule changes shoved down my throat (aside from making me sick) made me sick (did I mention it made me sick?)

Who is shoving rules changes down your throat? Is someone physically assaulting you with 4e books?

however, Gygax and Arneson's orginal system involved spells being PER DAY and not at will/encounter/daily,

Things have changed with each edition. Why is the change to the AEDU system bad? Is it only because it has changed?

it involved fighter-types fighting, clerics healing and turning undead and magic-users using magic

Today I ran a 4e game. The Fighter fought. The cleric healed, but did not turn undead because today's adventure did not involve undead. The magic user used magic. What's your point?

orginal OD&D didn't have the thief in the orginal men & magic book, it wasn't until...I want to say Greyhawk, don't hold me to it though...so as for rules/roles/rolls (like the 3 R's?) we can easily break changes down into the three sections.

(this is using the jump between 3.x and 4e)
Rules: Combat rules were similar, as were hit points and saves and math remained universal (seemingly) however the addition of powers seemed more like MTG than spells from the spells section. The core rules say one thing, but the powers allow you to break them in some way, albeit not a harsh way that ruins the game, enough to where it seems like Magic.

Huh, I never thought of it that way. I actually thought older version were more like M:tG. You had your spells, you could cast a certain amount per day(turn). After casting each spell you crossed it off the list(put it in the discard pile). You could get a new spell, putting in the spellbook(deck), but you'd have to wait to be able to memorize(draw) it.

Then again, I like M:tG, and don't consider it wrong to take design elements therefrom, so that's no foul on either way of doing it, for me.

Roles: the characters changed with the rules, and while you still needed a rogue, they removed the need for a cleric, the cleric (at least with me) holds a certain amount of pride to it, if a player willingly chooses the cleric, they either have a great build or a great idea for one. (as a side note, if a cleric saves you from death, buy him a drink [non-alcoholic for you youngsters out there]). As for the names of them, it felt more like building a squad of marines than an adventuring party.

There was a certain honor to being the guy that played the party cleric, but if no one was willing to, ime, usually someone would get pressured into it, which is the downside. Buying drinks for the guys that save your hide is always smart gaming, though.

As for role names, eh, I'm not gonna say they couldn't be better, but the important part was just that they didn't use Tank, DPS, Healer. I mean, a vast array of people still took it that way, but it's important, in my opinion, to recognize the difference between playing a Fighter and playing a Tank(if you take all the hits as a Fighter, you die) or a Warlord and a Healer(a Leader just isn't going to be able to keep everyone's health topped off in a decent battle).

Rolls: You still roll to hit, roll for checks, all that, dice remain the same, you still have DCs, but rob me of rolling hit points and my own saves?

Robbed? That's a nice, hyperbolic choice of words.

Same with the 'recharge' ability, I enjoyed using the d4, it allowed me as DM to create tactics, and realisticly, a dragon would know when its breath is coming back, just like you feel when you're out of breath and recovering your breath, at least 'realistically' it would know.

I don't think that is terribly realistic. If you stop to catch your breath, do you know it is coming back in exactly 12 seconds? No, you know you'll be able to use it again, probably soon, but not to the second. Recharging on a roll of X+ on a d6 mirrors that well enough.

So that's my view, I'm guessing there will be many people who respond in vain.

If I were trying to force you to bow before the Holy Awesome Fourth Coming of D&D, then yeah, this would be in vain. Luckily, I have no such lofty goal, and am in fact just putzing around ENworld.

Go for it, I'm like honey badger these days.

You mean adorable?

 

[Ettin]

Who is shoving rules changes down your throat? Is someone physically assaulting you with 4e books?

It's not the kind of assault you mean but I was once felt up at a bowling alley by an Essentials set.

 

[Summer-Knight925]

Rule changes shoved down my throat=instant dry up of material

now that pathfinder is out, there is material for me to use, but going to the local game store and constantly assaulted by the works to try to get me to play 4e counts as assault to me.

But now they're a large pathfinder store since pathfinder is doing better than 4e, at least in their store.

as for the roles and your fighter still fighting, does he just basic fight or use powers? The point I'm getting at is suddenly the awesomeness of the wizard spells, I mean, that's why you play a spellcaster, to do something other than basic attack.

It's like they made everyone a wizard.
Wizards should be mad.

And what doesn't help is the involvement of power cards into the game, that makes it feel more like MTG to me, as for OD&D, the spells per day were just that, per DAY. If you're counting 1 turn in magic as a day in D&D then wizard battles usually continue upon the 'epoch' amount of time.

Is Jace really as old as time?

I to played Magic, never really got into it due to the deck building aspect, I never had money to buy more cards meanwhile one person I know had so many cards it just wasn't fun to play against them.

Good thing I'm more of a rogue than a wizard

I used a red deck (focused on goblins) but still felt like I was more of a commander of an army rather than a wizard.
I needed more spell schools, not monsters.

If magic was split into the spell schools, I think I'd enjoy it WAY more. but that's just me.

I also don't like how the cards more or less break the rules, that one guy I was telling you about built a deck to where all damage I did somehow became health for him and hurt me, it was just no fun having -9001 health when he had +1,000,000,000,000,000,000 health with +500 tokens out, just not my kind of game.
And to see D&D take a step into that direction?
A cold shiver ran down my back.

but let's face it, table-top RPGs are doomed.
not really, as the economy tanks people turn to the unlimited fun of table-top games and away from video games, so yay for a bad economy?

 

[Pentius]

Rule changes shoved down my throat=instant dry up of material

Those are two very different things. Not to mention that there was boatloads of 3.x material, even just first party, which makes me skeptical that you had really used it all so thoroughly that you couldn't keep playing without new stuff.

now that pathfinder is out, there is material for me to use, but going to the local game store and constantly assaulted by the works to try to get me to play 4e counts as assault to me.

That sounds like distinctly a problem with the store, not the edition. Every game has jerks.

But now they're a large pathfinder store since pathfinder is doing better than 4e, at least in their store.

So, does that mean I could get Pathfinder shoved down my throat? [/snark]

as for the roles and your fighter still fighting, does he just basic fight or use powers?

Actually, the Fighter in my group is an Essentials Knight, so he does "basic fight", assuming by that you mean he uses basic attacks. Using a different mechanical system to represent combat doesn't make it not fighting, though. Just like in 2e, when they switched to ThAC0 instead of attack tables, Fighters were still fighting. Or in 3e, where they switched to BAB and High Ac being better, Fighters were still fighting. Each edition had somewhat different ways of determining success when the Fighter ran up and rang an orc's bell with his warhammer, but the end result is always fighting.

The point I'm getting at is suddenly the awesomeness of the wizard spells, I mean, that's why you play a spellcaster, to do something other than basic attack.

I thought people played wizards because they were interested in their wizard character concepts. Huh.

It's like they made everyone a wizard.
Wizards should be mad.

I really don't like this argument. Everyone works on a similar underlying mechanical framework in 4e. So what? My group's fighter isn't the guy that inscribes spells in a book for later use. My group's Wizard isn't running at the enemy with a warhammer. In 3e, everyone got HP, and AC, and save bonuses, and standard/move/minor actions on their turn. They also got their abilities largely via class features. Did this make them the same? No. The Ranger and the Sorcerer both got spells, did this make them the same? No.

And what doesn't help is the involvement of power cards into the game, that makes it feel more like MTG to me, as for OD&D, the spells per day were just that, per DAY. If you're counting 1 turn in magic as a day in D&D then wizard battles usually continue upon the 'epoch' amount of time.

More like wizard battle might take a couple weeks if a turn were a day. But the comparison was that spells were refreshed in a set amount of time. It doesn't so much matter what length of time.

Is Jace really as old as time?

I don't know. The planeswalkers always bored me, to be honest. I enjoyed the card game as a card game. I also enjoyed the artwork, and once I looked into it at all, the settings.

I to played Magic, never really got into it due to the deck building aspect, I never had money to buy more cards meanwhile one person I know had so many cards it just wasn't fun to play against them.

Good thing I'm more of a rogue than a wizard

Yeah, that part always sucked.

I used a red deck (focused on goblins) but still felt like I was more of a commander of an army rather than a wizard.
I needed more spell schools, not monsters.

If magic was split into the spell schools, I think I'd enjoy it WAY more. but that's just me.

The colors are pretty much spell schools, just not the D&D ones. Each color specializes in different effects and approaches. For what it's worth, you may have felt more like a wizard if you played Blue. Red is really about creatures and damage spells. Blue is where you start getting your metamagic/enchantment/abjuration stuff in.

I also don't like how the cards more or less break the rules, that one guy I was telling you about built a deck to where all damage I did somehow became health for him and hurt me, it was just no fun having -9001 health when he had +1,000,000,000,000,000,000 health with +500 tokens out, just not my kind of game.
And to see D&D take a step into that direction?
A cold shiver ran down my back.

That does suck, but that isn't really a problem of exception based design(everything breaks the rules). That kind of game comes up when different deck concepts(or classes, or builds) wildly outshine others, which is something wizards tried to reduce in 4e.

but let's face it, table-top RPGs are doomed.
not really, as the economy tanks people turn to the unlimited fun of table-top games and away from video games, so yay for a bad economy?

Boo for a bad economy, but since TTPRGs aren't going away either way, yay for TTRPGs!

 

[Summer-Knight925]

Pathfinder > 4e

now you insert angry remarks as I know you will.

Mod Note: Folks, you're allowed to have an opinion on a subject, and to say so. But, if you're going to poke people in the eye with it, don't act like it is all their fault if they react to the jab. Edition warring is built on a foundation of figuring that it is always the other guy who is to blame. ~Umbran

 

[Saint Mac]

Having played since 1st, I played 4e when it first popped out of mama Hasbro's womb. I wish it hadn't. Play Pathfinder now.

2 cents

 

[Ettin]

now you insert angry remarks as I know you will.

"U MAD?" would have saved you 40+ keyboard presses.

"NO U" would have been even better!

 

[Pentius]

Pathfinder > 4e

now you insert angry remarks as I know you will.

Adorable!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSFB2ytWJLQ]Adorable Bunny[/ame]

 

[technoextreme]

, the way alignment works, ect. .

I've always wondered why people would want to play with a mechanic that has such horrible philosophical underpinning. Please tell me why you like playing with a system that anyone who has any clue how morality and philosophy works would laugh at?