Issues with the Monk class

[Erekose]

In the thread, "which is the worst class", the Monk appears to be coming out as a strong contender!

I've always worried about the class because it has such strong flavour (particulalrly if you liked Kung Fu/Kwai Chang Caine) but with "mechanical" issues; e.g. low damage output for a combat-focused class, requirement for high scores in multiple attributes, special abilities with limited usefulness, etc.

Without completely re-engineering the class couldn't some of these issues be tackled in a more straight forwards way? e.g. as far as attributes are concerned, rather than Str, Dex, Con, and Wis all being important, what if we limited it but made the Monk a special case where abilities are helpful elsewhere? e.g. Wisdom is already used to benefit AC (but would perhaps need to have a greater impact here than it currently does); what if it also enhanced damage and hit points in a similar way? That would make Wisdom the key attribute for the class with others helpful but not critical.

Apologies for the rambling nature of the post - I know the issues with the Monk have always been there (since 1E) but is there any easy solution?

 

[EUBanana]

In the thread, "which is the worst class", the Monk appears to be coming out as a strong contender!

I've always worried about the class because it has such strong flavour (particulalrly if you liked Kung Fu/Kwai Chang Caine) but with "mechanical" issues; e.g. low damage output for a combat-focused class, requirement for high scores in multiple attributes, special abilities with limited usefulness, etc.

Without completely re-engineering the class couldn't some of these issues be tackled in a more straight forwards way? e.g. as far as attributes are concerned, rather than Str, Dex, Con, and Wis all being important, what if we limited it but made the Monk a special case where abilities are helpful elsewhere? e.g. Wisdom is already used to benefit AC (but would perhaps need to have a greater impact here than it currently does); what if it also enhanced damage and hit points in a similar way? That would make Wisdom the key attribute for the class with others helpful but not critical.

Apologies for the rambling nature of the post - I know the issues with the Monk have always been there (since 1E) but is there any easy solution?

I shall write a rambling answer then as I have been pondering a monk lately.

I think monks have been beefed up a lot as the books come out, the qigong monk is pretty good, and the martial artist in UC is pretty good too IMHO - there may well be others but those two archetypes leapt off the page for me. There is power creep here, but I think it's to address the underpowered vanilla monk, so justified power creep.

Aside from archetypes, there are various new feats in UC which are clearly aimed at monks - like vicious stomp for example is clearly aimed at a monk, and it is very nearly greater trip which monks couldn't easily get before. So basically monks can now be trip monkeys at level 7.

The style feats in it are clearly aimed at monks as well, though fighters also can leverage them of course.

I think there are various traps to monks which people fall in to buildwise. Strength is the monks main stat bar none and I think people overlook this, whenever I discuss monks with my group it's kinda assumed that Wisdom is the main stat with maybe some dex for survivability, but IMHO dexterity is a distant third, and a very distant third at that.

I did have a build sorted out for a crane style using trip monkey monk, and it seemed pretty worthy to me, at least against enemies using weapons. AC a few points lower than a fighter but thats all dodge AC which can be better than heavy armour, a zillion opportunities for AoOs on top of already high numbers of attacks, and power attack and high strength for causing pain.

One thing I did notice is that things only really came together at level 5 at a minimum so I guess low level monks have a hard time.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I tried to fix them is this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/pathfinder-rpg-discussion/309657-fixing-monk-class.html

By sticking to the kinds of things you'd expect a monk and martial artist to be good at and...actually making them good at them, and by reducing MAD.

 

[EUBanana]

Incidentally I don't know what peoples opinions of brass knuckles are, but seems to me a DM with even an ounce of kindness would let you use magic brass knuckles to add to your unarmed strikes and combat maneuvers. The lack of funky weapons is one of the issues for a monk, the amulet of mighty fists or whatever it is called is a ripoff, and it's taking the place of an amulet of natural armour (or something else).

+1 holy brass knuckles or something would do wonders for a monk given all the attacks they are making.

 

[Angrydad]

I've always allowed monk characters to buy and enchant hand-wraps/gloves/bracers with magic weapon enhancements that could apply to their unarmed strikes. Additionally, I think people complaining about the monk being "weak" aren't using the class abilities to their fullest. A monk can fall from a great height, leap insane distances, and has a movement rate of a caffeinated cheetah. Use that mobility to your advantage, people! A monk can slink around back and take out an enemy spellcaster, free the prisoners, etc. before the enemy knows what's happening.

 

[Artur Hawkwing]

I am currently running a Monk (who has lived to level 2! yay!) here on Enworld. She does not fit your normal example of a Monk. By not locking her into that mode, it has allowed me to gave more flexibility with the character concept. I'm taking her the Ki Mystic route, concentrating less on her combat skill and more on her personality and developing her Mysticism.

However I do agree, when it comes to enchanted/magic gear, Monks are pretty limited. Though a number of spells, if one travels with a proper caster, can effect unarmed strike as well as other weapons.

Perhaps some form of cloth "armor" outfit for the monk that provides them with a bonus to their fists, feat or, if split, to both, as they are able to train to be a living weapon. Or even just wraps and boots. Not that Audra is anywhere near able to use such things at this point. I am intending to focus more on her dexterity and being able to, for the most part, avoid stuff as I am on her ability to pound it into dust. Though I hope to be able to deploy her stunning fist soon.

Anyway, that's my ramble add-on.

 

[gamerprinter]

Incidentally I don't know what peoples opinions of brass knuckles are, but seems to me a DM with even an ounce of kindness would let you use magic brass knuckles to add to your unarmed strikes and combat maneuvers. The lack of funky weapons is one of the issues for a monk, the amulet of mighty fists or whatever it is called is a ripoff, and it's taking the place of an amulet of natural armour (or something else).

+1 holy brass knuckles or something would do wonders for a monk given all the attacks they are making.

Something I might be including in the weapons for my Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting are tekko - which are more or less brass knuckles from feudal Japan.