I don't want 5E, I want a definitive D&D (the Monopoly model)

[wingsandsword]

What part of board gamers do you not understand? Exactly one of those games has any serious adult players; the rest are for children or families with children.

First you say that all popular boardgames are less than 10 years old, so when I point out that most boardgames out there are many decades old you dismiss them by saying they are for families and children?

That's the whole point of the "boardgame model", the idea that D&D will be around for a very long time in a stable or semi-stable format so that the game can be passed down from generation to generation. Moms and Dads can relive the fun of their childhood with their kids by picking up D&D and showing them the same fun game they played as kids.

The first D&D set I ever got was packaged in that style, picked up at a Toys R Us in '91. I have yet to see another D&D set like that in a similar mass-market scenario. The various intro box sets WotC has made over the years have only been sold (or I've only seen them) in dedicated gaming stores, right alongside the PHB's and DMG's.

It's not about making D&D into a giant superheavy box set that costs $70+ and is shelved between Twilight Imperium and Descent: Journeys in the Dark.

 

[prosfilaes]

The ONLY non-electronic game I played regularly as a kid that has changed substantially since then is D&D, and that kind of change is pretty unique to RPG's, and D&D as the most well known RPG.

That type of change is not unique to RPGs. I thought we had established that; the Avalon Hill game Gettysburg has been through five major editions since it was first released. The Arkham Horror game was changed hugely for the second release. For other genres, well, Han shot first. When Nancy Drew was rereleased in the 1960s, some of the books shared the title with the 1930s edition, and little more.

(I don't know why you think this is unique to D&D among RPGs, either. Right off the top of my head is Traveller, with huge changes to the rules with each edition.)

First you say that all popular boardgames are less than 10 years old, so when I point out that most boardgames out there are many decades old you dismiss them by saying they are for families and children?

To quote myself:

There are very few board games from Monopoly's era still on the market. As I said, most of the games that board gamers play are less than 10 years old. The reason Monopoly is still available for sale is because it's not selling to board gamers. The dynamics of the market for Monopoly is entirely different then the dynamics for a modern gamer game.

I don't know how you get "most boardgames out there are many decades old"; you named the vast majority of the ones in print that are.

That's the whole point of the "boardgame model", the idea that D&D will be around for a very long time in a stable or semi-stable format so that the game can be passed down from generation to generation. Moms and Dads can relive the fun of their childhood with their kids by picking up D&D and showing them the same fun game they played as kids.

That's what I've been calling the Monopoly model, since it doesn't apply to most board games. Again, to quote myself:

You want Monopoly-type sales, which means to wide audience, more than just gamers, and an audience that will accept a game that never changes. You want them to switch models. The problem is, the Monopoly model depends on having tens of millions of people buy the same game. I don't think they have that; I think if they stop the business model of producing new systems every 5 years or so, they will be hard put to keep the game in print at all.

The first D&D set I ever got was packaged in that style, picked up at a Toys R Us in '91. I have yet to see another D&D set like that in a similar mass-market scenario. The various intro box sets WotC has made over the years have only been sold (or I've only seen them) in dedicated gaming stores, right alongside the PHB's and DMG's.

The 4E red box was in some Walmarts, though I never saw it. But the point is, Hasbro would love to see D&D right by Monopoly. TSR wanted that, too. It wanted that so badly that it was one of the factors that drove them into bankruptcy. Yes, returns from the mass-market bookstores is one of the things that pushed TSR over the edge. If D&D could escape the gaming "ghetto" they would do it. But the sales simply aren't there.

An old Guinness Book of World Records says that Monopoly sold 80,000,000 copies between 1935-1974. When they can sell 2 million copies a year of the same PHB, year-in, year-out, then we can talk about selling it like it was Monopoly. But that's not remotely what D&D does.

 

[Bedrockgames]

An old Guinness Book of World Records says that Monopoly sold 80,000,000 copies between 1935-1974. When they can sell 2 million copies a year of the same PHB, year-in, year-out, then we can talk about selling it like it was Monopoly. But that's not remotely what D&D does.

This is all just my recollection, and everyone seems to have a different take on the history of D&D: There were some moments when D&D became somewhat mainstream. It has just been on a popularity decline since the mid-80s or so (with a few brief booms if I remember). Even through the 90s though you could find the red boxed set in toy stores. I know because I bought a bunch of them for the heck of it. I think it has just been a matter of D&D increasingly becoming more and more of a niche hobby game. I suppose it makes sense, that is how it began. But there was a time when you had a D&D TV show, D&D being played in movies like ET, and commercials for D&D on television. But that was also a period when fantasy and sci-fi were hugely popular in general.

I don't know if that can be achieved again. I think it was more of a passing craze in the early 80s like shoulder pads or the moonwalk.

 

[Jhaelen]

I want to play the same D&D when I'm sixty. In 2045 I want to play it with my sister, uncle, future unborn nephew, and my oldest friend, all of whom haven't played the game in 1d4 decades.

Well, leaving aside that I'll be sixty long before 2045, if I recognize the tiniest thing about D&D in 2045 I'll be vastly disappointed. I want the game to continually evolve.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

They released new editions of monopoly, like ones with new properties to buy or gimmicks like using credit cards instead of cash or modular gameboards that can be customized for each time the game is played. However, the same old classic Monopoly that has been played for decades is still on sale in stores. I know, I picked one up earlier this year for my kid.

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong.

Go dig out an old copy of the game and look at the board and the rules. There are quite a few differences, from the rules, to the placement and value of different properties to what's on the Chance and Community Chest cards. The differences appear subtle, but in statistical terms, they're pretty major and greatly impact the average game.

About the most minor change was changing the color of the first two properties on the board to match what they had been using for them outside of the US for decades. Everything else was much more significant.

 

[wingsandsword]

That type of change is not unique to RPGs. I thought we had established that; the Avalon Hill game Gettysburg has been through five major editions since it was first released. The Arkham Horror game was changed hugely for the second release. For other genres, well, Han shot first. When Nancy Drew was rereleased in the 1960s, some of the books shared the title with the 1930s edition, and little more.

(I don't know why you think this is unique to D&D among RPGs, either. Right off the top of my head is Traveller, with huge changes to the rules with each edition.)

I never said anything like that about D&D, now you're just misquoting me. I was trying to say it's unique to RPG's, and that D&D is the most famous RPG so it's most obvious when D&D has big changes.

As for Avalon Hill games, I honestly don't play them and don't know anything about those ponderously huge wargames, and don't know anybody in real-life who plays them, so I can't comment on them. I was trying to say, before my words were twisted, that of the various kinds of non-electronic games that kids (children & teenagers) play, only RPGs change so much over so little time and can be totally unrecognizable within a generation. The colossal wargames with intricate rules and hundreds of little cardboard chits that make for hefty boxes put on bookshelves are not for kids and teenagers, or even most adults, so I really didn't think of them.

I don't know how you get "most boardgames out there are many decades old"; you named the vast majority of the ones in print that are.

I got that from your quote:

As I said, most of the games that board gamers play are less than 10 years old.

Sounds like saying that most games that are out there, being played are less than 10 years old. I was rebutting that by pointing out that most games that are played are decades old. Maybe most games being played by hardcore boardgamers, the kind who go to boardgamegeek.com and collect board games, are less than 10 years old, but I would be amazed if that die-hard market is more than a small fraction of the whole boardgame market. I also pointed out that some of the more popular games enjoyed by that subculture, such as Catan and Arkham Horror, are more than 10 years old (yes, Arkham Horror has changed, but nothing on the scale of the sweeping changes of the 3e/4e D&D schism).

Now, as an aside, truth be told, about those old edition of D&D from 20+ years ago. . .I never could figure out enough how to play them as a kid. My friends and me could never figure out THAC0, we wanted to play D&D but in the end just gave up on playing it. At least the post 2000 editions simplified that math: roll a d20, add bonuses, see if you met or exceeded armor class. Instead of: roll a d20, look at the THAC0, look at the armor class. . .stare at them for a minute, put the game up and go back to the Nintendo.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong.

Go dig out an old copy of the game and look at the board and the rules. There are quite a few differences, from the rules, to the placement and value of different properties to what's on the Chance and Community Chest cards. The differences appear subtle, but in statistical terms, they're pretty major and greatly impact the average game.

About the most minor change was changing the color of the first two properties on the board to match what they had been using for them outside of the US for decades. Everything else was much more significant.

I think there are definitely differences, but these are minor compared to the differences between editions of D&D. I've played Monopoly since I was a kid, and the game has basically had the same structure and been recognizeable since I first tried it in 1980. Compare D&D from 1980 to today and I think you have alot more drastic changes.

 

[Hussar]

snip

However, with D&D, the only edition on sale is one released 3 years ago (of the 37 year history of the game) with zero backward compatibility to older editions. /snip

You mean like 3e? Which was pretty much completely not backwards compatible with earlier editions? Even modules brought forward from earlier editions had to be completely reworked in order to be run.

Never minding things like B/E/C/M/I - let's see you play your Immortal character in AD&D.

Funnily enough though, I'm rebuilding my World's Largest Dungeon for 4e and it's not exactly difficult to go from 3e to 4e. First region looks pretty much the same in both editions - numbers might change a bit, but, other than that, nope, pretty much the same.

Or, if you want a side by side comparison, look at the Pathfinder and 4e versions of Zeitgeist. It's not like they are massively different. In fact, they're pretty darn close.

This is all just my recollection, and everyone seems to have a different take on the history of D&D: There were some moments when D&D became somewhat mainstream. It has just been on a popularity decline since the mid-80s or so (with a few brief booms if I remember). Even through the 90s though you could find the red boxed set in toy stores. I know because I bought a bunch of them for the heck of it. I think it has just been a matter of D&D increasingly becoming more and more of a niche hobby game. I suppose it makes sense, that is how it began. But there was a time when you had a D&D TV show, D&D being played in movies like ET, and commercials for D&D on television. But that was also a period when fantasy and sci-fi were hugely popular in general.

I don't know if that can be achieved again. I think it was more of a passing craze in the early 80s like shoulder pads or the moonwalk.

You honestly think SF and fantasy were more popular in the 80's than they are now? Really? Quick, name the top grossing movie of all time - 9 of the top ten are SF or Fantasy and ALL of them (the fantasy movies) have been made in the past ten years.

We have SF on prime time TV now - and it's top spot. We have cable channels devoted to nothing BUT SF and Fantasy.

The idea that genre fiction was more popular in the past than it is now is not true at all. Every element of genre fiction - print, movies, TV, video games, shows that SF and Fantasy are on the top spots of pretty much everything.

Good grief, I remember the 80's. We could go an entire year without an SF movie. And fantasy movies? Other than some really really crap B list movies, fergettaboutit. Now, we get genre movies every year, and that's movies plural. Heck, look at this summer. How many genre movies did we have? Six, seven? Between comic book movies and straight up SF and fantasy, we're in the land of milk and honey as far as geekdom goes.

See, the presumption that so many gamers seem to have is that the gamer population hit some sort of peak back in the 80's and we've done nothing but decline since then. But, there's nothing to actually support that. Gen Con this year posted record attendance. En World has done nothing but grow, year on year, year after year. We've now got TWO companies producing core D&D material on a regular basis, when, for the past thirty years, we only had one.

How is this evidence of shrinkage?

 

[Bedrockgames]

See, the presumption that so many gamers seem to have is that the gamer population hit some sort of peak back in the 80's and we've done nothing but decline since then. But, there's nothing to actually support that. Gen Con this year posted record attendance. En World has done nothing but grow, year on year, year after year. We've now got TWO companies producing core D&D material on a regular basis, when, for the past thirty years, we only had one.

How is this evidence of shrinkage?

By the late 80s, sure there wasn't much in the way of SF/Fanatsy, but most of the movies I was able to see at the cinema as a kid between 80-84 were in the sci-fi fantasy realm: Star Wars, Krull, Fire and Ice, Tron, Secret of NIMH, Time Bandits, Dragonslayer, Dune, The Dark Crystal, Clash of the Titans, etc. Stuff I wasn't allowed to see as well like Conan, Excaliber, Deathstalker, etc. On television you had a dungeons and dragons cartoon. You had D&D action figures being sold in Toys R Us. I think we have a good amount of superhero and science fiction these days (though I still think not as much as late 70s early 80s). But besides Lord of the Rings, I have not seen nearly as much mainstream fanatasy films as were available then. I admit, it could be nostalgia, but I just recall things being saturated with a fantasy and science fiction vibe.

But whether or not those genres are more popular now or then, it is pretty obvious to me the hobby has shrunk in recent years. We are more connected because of the internet, but I would not characterize Table Top RPGs as a growing hobby.

 

[Hussar]

By the late 80s, sure there wasn't much in the way of SF/Fanatsy, but most of the movies I was able to see at the cinema as a kid between 80-84 were in the sci-fi fantasy realm: Star Wars, Krull, Fire and Ice, Tron, Secret of NIMH, Time Bandits, Dragonslayer, Dune, The Dark Crystal, Clash of the Titans, etc. Stuff I wasn't allowed to see as well like Conan, Excaliber, Deathstalker, etc. On television you had a dungeons and dragons cartoon. You had D&D action figures being sold in Toys R Us. I think we have a good amount of superhero and science fiction these days (though I still think not as much as late 70s early 80s). But besides Lord of the Rings, I have not seen nearly as much mainstream fanatasy films as were available then. I admit, it could be nostalgia, but I just recall things being saturated with a fantasy and science fiction vibe.

Let's take TV, just for a second. I watched the second season of Legend of the Seeker tonight. I watched Lost through it's entire run. I'm watching Warehouse 13 tomorrow night. Andromeda, Battlestar Gallactica, Stargate (at one point THREE concurrently running shows), Buffy, Firefly, Fringe and that's just what's on my Japanese TV.

And, look at the movies you named. When I said B grade movies, that's pretty much what you listed. Deathstalker? Conan? Time Bandits? Krull? Sure, I LOVE those movies. But, I'm a geek of a certain age. OF COURSE I love those movies.

But, compare to what you get now. Harry Potter features top of the line actors. Real A list people. Lord of the Rings has some pretty serious names. Even things like Disney's The Wizard's Apprentice has Nicholas Cage in it. Never mind the Pirates of the Carribean movies.

I love 80's fantasy movies. I do. But, I'm under no illusions as to how bad they really are, and how outside of mainstream.

But whether or not those genres are more popular now or then, it is pretty obvious to me the hobby has shrunk in recent years. We are more connected because of the internet, but I would not characterize Table Top RPGs as a growing hobby.

Why not? And I'm honestly curious about this. Like I said, you've got healthy, strong growing online communities. You've got one company that's growing like gangbusters (Paizo) producing a version of D&D. The other big one is still doing pretty well from appearances - the DDI seems to be pretty successful. Convention attendance is up to record numbers. We have Facebook apps for D&D coming. Outside of D&D, the Underworld movies seem to have done pretty well. D&D and other gaming fiction seems to be healthy and easy to find.

Heck, I see Forgotten Realms fiction translated into Japanese at the local bookstore (R A Salvatore stuff mostly) and I live in the back end of nowhere in Japan.

So, why do you think the hobby is shrinking?