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D&D 5E What if 5e had 2 types of roles

CroBob

First Post
Couldn't you choose your combat role with a simple selection of skills? I'm not saying the general idea this thread puts forth is at all a bad one, only that's it's unnecessary. Why bog down the rules with non-combat clases instead of simply giving each class the same number of trained skills and letting them choose whichever skills they want to? Want to play the face? Choose Insight, Diplomacy, and Bluff. Crafting a non-combat class seems kind of pointless to me, especially since some class features currently have some baring on non-combat as it is (wordrobe, no small part of your background (you need to learn to be a Fighter, after all. You can't just pick up a sword and call yourself a tank), and some utility powers. Now, like I said, I see nothing wrong with the idea of non-combat classes, I simply think they're needless rules additions.
 

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KidSnide

Adventurer
[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION], your games may not need a conceptual tool to remind you that the game should provide a mechanism for all PCs to shine, but I'm not sure I could say the same of the average published module.

Just as importantly, roles provide a "check" to ensure that classes don't dominate or get dominated in non-combat situations. I believe that many fighters simply don't have enough useful skills to contribute on close to the same level as the average PCs. Likewise, bards and rogues have a tradition of dominating several multiple aspects of non-combat. I think this is like the old cleric class where they were given many levels of capability to make up for a fundamentally unappealing aspect of the class.

Lastly, I think these non-combat themes have some flexibility advantages over the current system. Want to play a great sneak? You can train stealth and thievery with some feats, but it's not the same as a full package of complementary powers / theme abilities.

-KS
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Dude? I fence. I didn't pick rapier by accident.

It's more plausible that you use Int for long light weapons than Dex. Certainly than Str. You need a modicum of Str and Dex to use such weapons, but the primary indicator is strategy. If someone beats me, it's rarely going to be because they're stronger than I am, and rarely because they're faster (and if either, it's because they're a -lot- faster or a -lot- stronger); more often they're smarter (doubtful) or more skillful. And I've certainly beaten better fencers soley through strategy. Clearly, Int should be the primary trait for all physical combat, with everything else relegated to secondary use, if at all.

Yes, there is strategy in fencing, but strategy is the equivalent of experience. In other words, strategy is the equivalent of levels in D&D terms. You can have the smartest guy in the world and because he is inexperienced, an experience stupid person with a similar Dex is still going to beat him in fencing.

Coordination, speed, and agility (i.e. Dex) is a lot more important in fencing than intelligence (i.e. Int). The ability to combine footwork with bladework is coordination and timing (and obviously experience / practice / muscle memory), not intelligence per se. Dex is not more important than experience (i.e. levels).

Dex is obviously better than Str for light bladed weapons, but it's also obviously better than Int as well.

An intelligent person might learn fencing faster, but he won't be significantly better than an equally coordinated and experienced person because the other equally experienced person will be using similar tactics.

What you call tactics or strategy, I call levels. It doesn't matter which melee weapon a person uses, the ability to use it the proper way at the proper time (i.e. tactics or strategy) is mostly based on experience and practice (i.e. levels). And if you think that heavy weapons do not have tactics just like rapiers, you are mistaken. Feints, footwork, timing, all of it applies to any type of melee weapon.

No doubt, intelligence and decision making influences everything we do in life, but there's no way we should boil combat ability in a game down to Int.
 

KidSnide

Adventurer
Actually I think the 4 combat roles ARE fundamental. They transcend D&D (though D&D puts its own spin on them to some extent). Go back to The Art of War and you'll find the same tactical concepts. They aren't a construct of the game at all, they fall naturally out of the very fundamental nature of tactics and you could not create a different set that would be meaningful, nor construct a fifth role which was equally fundamental. This is entirely different from the non-combat role concept, which is simply a packaging up of similar mechanics. I think they are fundamentally different.

I thought about this for a little while, and I agree that there is something a little more fundamental about the combat roles than the non-combat roles I've described here, principally because combat is a focused activity, whereas non-combat is the range of other activities.

That having been said, I think the roles could be divided differently. For example, strikers could have AOE damage and controllers could focus more on debuffs. (City of Heroes is/was closer to that, IIRC.) Or you could divide the roles more finely into, say, Soldier, Controller, Artillery, Brute, Lurker and Skirmisher and Leader.

Couldn't you choose your combat role with a simple selection of skills? I'm not saying the general idea this thread puts forth is at all a bad one, only that's it's unnecessary. Why bog down the rules with non-combat clases instead of simply giving each class the same number of trained skills and letting them choose whichever skills they want to?

It's probably not necessary if skills are the only non-combat abilities, but 4e is complicated by a mash of rituals, utility powers and class abilities that have a powerful effect on the skill system.

-KS
 

CroBob

First Post
It's probably not necessary if skills are the only non-combat abilities, but 4e is complicated by a mash of rituals, utility powers and class abilities that have a powerful effect on the skill system.

-KS
Anyone can cast rituals if they want to spend the feat. I could see having the option to take utility powers from a "general" pool in addition to class utilities, however. Perhaps maybe even by "power source" instead of general or by class would work even better.
 

mneme

Explorer
Yes, there is strategy in fencing, but strategy is the equivalent of experience.
Not really. I've beaten people much more experienced than I was due to strategy (you could say I was using my levels in gamer, I guess--but my skills there are still Int based).

In other words, strategy is the equivalent of levels in D&D terms. You can have the smartest guy in the world and because he is inexperienced, an experience stupid person with a similar Dex is still going to beat him in fencing.
Sure, but if he's very experience he might very well have the advantage over someone with similar or even higher Dex but lower Int.

What we're talking about isn't "what abilities help you when you're untrained," but "what abilities provide a the limit on your skill". In D&D3, someone with low Str is never going to be able to be as good, given equivalent experience, at using a polearm as soemone with a high Str. In the real world, sure, experience will raise their strength (wait for it), but they'll still, given greater intelligence and a mind suited for it, be able to exceed someone with a high Str and lower intelligence given enough experience given to both.

Coordination, speed, and agility (i.e. Dex) is a lot more important in fencing than intelligence (i.e. Int). The ability to combine footwork with bladework is coordination and timing (and obviously experience / practice / muscle memory), not intelligence per se. Dex is not more important than experience (i.e. levels).

Actually, I'd say those are all levels (exeperience), and not Dex, per se. As my mestro says, "timing will save you when speed won't." Given skill, speed and strength are almost irrelevant to fencing; what matters is training, observation/analsysis, and stategy (and, of course, skill).

I think the real world, all physical stats automaticlaly grow with training (and arguably all mental stats as well); my Dex and Strength (and most of the Dex has stayed) measurably and noticably grew while I was seriously training. But the limiter is skill and strategy.

Dex is obviously better than Str for light bladed weapons, but it's also obviously better than Int as well.
Only weapons where the action is fast enough that you have to rely pretty much entirely on muscle memory, not strategy. Daggers? Oh, yes. Rapiers, or even smallswords, not so much.

An intelligent person might learn fencing faster, but he won't be significantly better than an equally coordinated and experienced person because the other equally experienced person will be using similar tactics.

Really? How many not-very-bright high level chess players do you know?

Now, lets go down the list a little:

Strength is the most important stat in combat. If you've got enough strength and a weapon that supports it (a mace, hammer, or heavy blade) your opponent's strategy, speed, and any other fancy tactics don't mean a thing; you can just overpower whatever they put in your way.

Dexterity is the most important stat in combat. If you're fast enough you can dodge whatever they attack you with and place your blows in the gaps between their defenses--and with good enough timing you don't have to be a lot faster than they are -- just fast enough that they can't touch you.

Int is the most important stat in combat. Once you've got enough skill; enough strength, and enough Dex to wield your weapon correctly, combat is all about figuring out what you're opponent is doing and formulating a strategy to defeat it. Your training will make sure you've got the timing to execute; but the smarter fighter is, all things being equal, going to win.

Charisma is the most important stat in combat. Once you've trained enough to be able to use your weapon competently, a fight really depends on who is in control; who is asking the questions and who is answering them -- and if you can project into the fight, you're going to be that person. Sure, your opponent may think they have a strategy -- but if you're the one calling the shots, they're going to be dancing to your tune.

Wisdom is the most important stat in combat. Once you've trained enough to be able to fight competently, a fight is all about observation and understanding. Observe your opponent and you can get inside their head -- once you've done -that-, you know what they're going to do next and can counter it before they change their mind. And even if you can't get inside their head, by observation you can catch patterns in your opponent' style that even they aren't aware of, and exploit those patterns. Plus, in a mass battle, you're going to be the only one who isn't caught unawares by someone coming from an unexpected direction.

..And back to point by point for a bit.

What you call tactics or strategy, I call levels. It doesn't matter which melee weapon a person uses, the ability to use it the proper way at the proper time (i.e. tactics or strategy) is mostly based on experience and practice (i.e. levels).
But those aren't strategy. Those -are- based on training. Strategy is the high level stuff; the bits you think about when you're watching your opponent's previous fight or have a pause to think about things (or just enough time for the stategy part of your brain to kick in). Actual fighting is far too reaction-based and fast to strategize; but what choices you make there can be and should be informed by strategy based on knowledge of your opponent.

And if you think that heavy weapons do not have tactics just like rapiers, you are mistaken. Feints, footwork, timing, all of it applies to any type of melee weapon.
Of course...although to varying degrees. Daggers are just deadly -- and when you get in that close, speed is going to matter a lot. You train differently for different weapons, and what skills you use changes as well.

No doubt, intelligence and decision making influences everything we do in life, but there's no way we should boil combat ability in a game down to Int.

The thing is, -some- people's combat ability boils down to Int (mine does). Other people's combat ability...well, I've met some pretty dumb guys who were pretty damned good, so maybe not so much. In the end, it's a complex, ever-shifting gestalt between physical abilities (which can grow with experience or shrink with atrophy) and mental abilities (which can do the same damned thing). You can't easily model it in a game. But if you're going with a heroic exaggerated setup where PCs tend to be paragons of one thing or another, modeling it with a movable attack stat with some restrictions isn't actually that bad a way of doing it. It's a simplification, sure, but it's actually much more reasonable than the <=2nd edition "Dex is to-hit, Str is damage" or the 3rd edition "Str is melee, Dex is ranged or light weapon melee".
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
Yes, there is strategy in fencing, but strategy is the equivalent of experience. In other words, strategy is the equivalent of levels in D&D terms. You can have the smartest guy in the world and because he is inexperienced, an experience stupid person with a similar Dex is still going to beat him in fencing.

Coordination, speed, and agility (i.e. Dex) is a lot more important in fencing than intelligence (i.e. Int). The ability to combine footwork with bladework is coordination and timing (and obviously experience / practice / muscle memory), not intelligence per se. Dex is not more important than experience (i.e. levels).

This stuff never maps directly to stats or character experience in the game model, which is why it is so contentious.

The three most important components in sports fencing, by so much that everything else is minor, are timing, precision (placement), and speed (and reach)--in that order. A certain minimum in all three is necessary compared to the opponent, but if you have slightly superior timing compared to their slightly superior precision and speed--you probably win.

Strategy and tactics sit on top of all of this, and govern how well you do in the rough band where your timing, precision, and speed place you. (And at most levels, also ego, especially in mixed bouts, where a woman getting under a man's skin can sometimes compensate for the inherent and immense speed superiority.)

Timing is the most important of the core skils, and also the hardest to teach. This is why musicians sometimes pick up quality fencing faster than superior athletes. The athlete has such an advantage in speed that they rely on it, win often at first, but don't develop the other skills adequately. This is why if you have a high school team, you can get away with focusing on basic defense and quick attacks by the athletes. About the time they hit the wall, they have graduated, and you move on. If you started with 5th graders and taught them properly (and maybe started them in the band at the same time ;) ), six years later they'd beat all their peers consistently.

Speed maps more to Str than Dex. There is a minor but significant part of it that is reflected in Dex--reaction time. But mainly it is the correct muscle development, coupled with reach. The business end of the weapon goes from here to there. Once you can consistently start from "here" and get to "there", speed is helpful. You can use smarts (strategy, tactics, skills) to slow down the pace at times. Even varying the pace is helpful. But if you leave a sufficient opening for the other guy, that speed will tell. The skill part of speed is almost all about maintaining the other aspects in service to the speed. (How fast can you tie your shoes? If you practiced a lot, how much could you improve it? There is a ceiling. The practice would largely be about conditioning and removing extraneous elements.) The skill part of "speed" is often reflected in an older fencer's ability to barely move their blade. It isn't that they are faster. It is that they are very efficient.

Precision mainly maps to Dex, as far as natural ability. Again, skill is about removing the extraneous elements. If you parry 4 the same way every time (given that is appropriate), then you know where your point is. This makes precision far easier. Things like having your wrist turned at the proper position, the appropriate amount of grip, and so forth could be argued as more than extraneous, but I see them that way. It is skill, and it does take a lot of practice, but that is because the correct way is not a natural thing to most people, and there are 20 bad ways for every 1 correct way.

But ah, timing. Timing doesn't map to anything directly in a game model. You take that minimum required precision and speed, combine it in a dance with your footwork (sometimes seeming independent of the upper body, as a great drummer on a trap set does with all four limbs), and the whole time your "mental stats" are concentrating on what you will do to your opponent and how that will make them react. It is high speed chess with a blade, and it takes a certain amount of fencing experience in the spectators merely to see all the moves.

All that above is in a highly regulated, safe, sport--confined to an artificial strip, one versus one. No one has died from the blade since 1990, though there have been heart attacks and such. You can't bring a bigger axe and chop through their shield. There is no magic, though sometimes an official that isn't up to the level of the competition can make it seem that way. (Fencing is chronically short of experienced officials at certain levels.)

So I am fairly certain that the reality of a D&D combat is high speed 3-D chess, where the number of opponents changes every second or two, the boards rotate at random, and magic changes the rules constantly. :cool: This means that the characters are pulling upon every resource, or they are dead. So I would expect raw ability to be somewhat telling at the beginning of their careers, like those 4-year high school fencers, but quickly overshadowed by whatever can be leveraged. A smart character, of any class, would use it. And a relatively dumb one would find a way to compensate for being dumb.
 

Ryujin

Legend
I made to wonder how much "timing, precision (placement), and speed (and reach)" come into play when the opponent is wielding a katana, instead of the rapier that you are using? Fencing is a sport, with rules, just like kendo is. Combat is something else, entirely.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
Well, yes, it's a flag in much the same way that Defender and Striker are flags. Striker doesn't have any specific mechanic. It's just a marker to that says this class has a special damage enhancing ability. The role indicates that the classes (or themes) that are of this role will be especially good at the actions associated with the role (buffing/healing, defending, single-target-killing or AoE/conditions) or (infiltrating, persuading, exploring/traveling, or information gathering).

That sparked an idea. The combat roles are a bit crude, taken simply straight. That's why we have classes built with secondary roles, and the designers made this more explicit as they built up the 4E options. That is, four things taken solely is rather lame, but four things mixed together in different proportions removes most of the problems while preserving most of the uses.

In non-combat roles, you could have secondary roles that are never primary. This would be way of including some things that need to be included (for flavor, scope, etc.), are too wide for a single skill or feat, but too narrow for a primary role. I can see "merchant" or "sailor" being in that category.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
I made to wonder how much "timing, precision (placement), and speed (and reach)" come into play when the opponent is wielding a katana, instead of the rapier that you are using? Fencing is a sport, with rules, just like kendo is. Combat is something else, entirely.

Given equal skill, and the presumed relatively light armor worn by both participants wielding those weapons, the rapier user will be at a disadvantage. And not because of any katana being some kind of inherently superior sword nonsense, either. All else being equal, if you are capable of using a longer blade with two hands, and the opponent is stuck with only using one hand, you have an advantage. This would make speed relatively less important, precision about equal, though probably slightly less, and timing even more important. But mainly, it would be about using whatever you had, with whatever mental aspects you could bring to it, to adjust.

Of course, if we presume reasonable intelligence on the part of both, then the katana guy is starting the fight with a wakizasha (sp?), naginata and Japanese longbow, while the rapier guy definitely has a buckler, dagger, and crossbow. They may end up facing each other down to nothing but the one main blade each, but you can obviously imagine a 1,000 different outcomes from those starts. And that doesn't even take into account any armor or firearms options that both might pursue. :lol:

But I rather wonder if you read my post to the end, given that I already addressed the sports fencing versus real combat discrepancy. The more options you have, the more important the other pieces become. That is, if Int is useful in a 1 on 1, regulated sparring bout, it is even more important in a 1 on 1 deadly combat.

I think what throws people off is how much this doesn't apply to relatively green participants. The high school fencers with only a few years training are analogous to green troops. For those, some simple basic training that concentrates mainly on their athletic ability (and heightened physical and mental conditioning) is designed to get them through those first fights with some chance of success. Partly this is because this is the only effective way to train masses quickly, but this is also because mass anything is a chaotic mess where luck is also a huge factor. (Our Salle experimented a few times with picking teams of fencers and fencing in a line, where you could hit anyone, just to see what we would happen. The overwhelming consensus was that this basically nullified most skill, once a person got to the point where they could do basic attacks and parries.)

That is, the fact that is sports fencing for points instead of a duel to the death with mixed weapons is less telling than changing from a duel to a melee.
 
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