• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Legends & Lore: Live together, die alone!

if you have four roles and five players, doesn't that mean that two players aren't going to get as much chance to shine?

(And in the above, please note that I'm not necessarily talking about 4e, which I'm sure has its own answers to the above. But for a theoretical 5e, those are questions that really need answered.)
I haven't found this to be an issue in 4e. So is there a reason to think it would be different in a hypothetical 5e?

Basically, in-combat healing is pretty much a D&D invention, it doesn't appear in the source literature
I don't think this is right.

In LotR Gandalf gives inspiring speeches to the defenders of Minas Tirith. And Aragorn inspires the hobbits when he returns to Weathertop. This looks to me like Healing or Inspiring Words.

Conan reaches deep into his reserves in the occasional fight at least. This looks to me like Second Wind.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

In LotR Gandalf gives inspiring speeches to the defenders of Minas Tirith. And Aragorn inspires the hobbits when he returns to Weathertop. This looks to me like Healing or Inspiring Words.

Inspiring words are a very different beast to healing, though. IMO, these should be modelled with some sort of bonus to hit, or AC, or something of the sort, and not with the healing of hit point damage. (Because, despite what the books say to the contrary, this latter is bound up with physical damage in the minds of too many players, and that association cannot reasonably be broken.)

Otherwise, you open the door to the Bard causing hit point damage (and potentially death) to the enemy with a vicious taunt, and that's a silliness best suited to Monty Python (or perhaps Austin Powers).

Conan reaches deep into his reserves in the occasional fight at least. This looks to me like Second Wind.

Indeed. You'll note that I specifically exempted Second Wind!
 

I might be completely mistaken, but my impression is that the L&L polls are purposely polarized. Given three choices, I expect that most people will choose the middle option most of the time.

I don't think Monte Cook would be surprised to learn that most people want a game that involves teamwork while still allowing PCs to contribute individually. That sort of response is essentially meaningless.

Why? If that's what people want, should WotC be aiming to give that to them. And if Monte is not surprised by the answer, then that means one of two things:

1) He can take confidence in knowing that his design is on the right track because he's correctly judged the mood of the audience

or

2) He should know better than to ask such an obvious question in future. Next time, ask about something people do have strong polarised opinions about, like "dice roll vs point buy".

Give players only two extremes however, and you can find where their leanings lie. If they had to choose, would they prefer a more teamwork-oriented or individual-based game?

Problem is, there's always a third choice: "I refuse to answer that question because the options are both bloody stupid."

If they use the information from the poll, this will lead them to designing the game in one of two directions, but whichever way they go the result will be hated. Instead, they will have to go for a middle ground. But since that means they will have to not use the information from the poll, since they can't use the information from the poll, they have actually rendered the poll useless. In which case, why bother?
 

If they use the information from the poll, this will lead them to designing the game in one of two directions, but whichever way they go the result will be hated. Instead, they will have to go for a middle ground. But since that means they will have to not use the information from the poll, since they can't use the information from the poll, they have actually rendered the poll useless. In which case, why bother?

Well, it could lead to a design where they aim to make characters individually largely self-sufficient but gaining some advantages from working as part of a team. So characters who are separated from their companions are still able to function effectively, rather than being only marginally capable. Or, they might design a game based on the assumption that you'll be part of a group, and if you're apart from that group then you will be significantly less capable and will have to take more care. Or, they'll design classes so that some can operate individually without gaining much from being in a group, while others excel when they're working as part of a team, and decide how many of each to create partly based on the proportion of people answering this question in the appropriate manner.
 

Why? If that's what people want, should WotC be aiming to give that to them. And if Monte is not surprised by the answer, then that means one of two things:

1) He can take confidence in knowing that his design is on the right track because he's correctly judged the mood of the audience

or

2) He should know better than to ask such an obvious question in future. Next time, ask about something people do have strong polarised opinions about, like "dice roll vs point buy".



Problem is, there's always a third choice: "I refuse to answer that question because the options are both bloody stupid."

If they use the information from the poll, this will lead them to designing the game in one of two directions, but whichever way they go the result will be hated. Instead, they will have to go for a middle ground. But since that means they will have to not use the information from the poll, since they can't use the information from the poll, they have actually rendered the poll useless. In which case, why bother?

Perhaps an example might illustrate my point better.

Let's assume we're all playing a little game where I ask a question and you have to pick one of two choices. The question is, which of these two women would you rather date and marry? (You can substitute man for woman if you happen to prefer the other gender.) A woman who is smokin' hot but has a vile personality, or a woman who has a perfect personality but is hideous looking?

Now, clearly these two options aren't very realistic. How often in your life will those be your only choices? Probably never! However, the question does lend insight into whether the person being asked values looks or personality more.

Now assume that I introduce a third option. A woman who has a nice personality and who is pretty. Wouldn't just about everyone pick this third option given the other two? I think so! What does this third option really tell us? I suppose it tells us that the person values both looks and personality, but I expect we already knew that. That statement is probably true of 99.999% of people out there. It doesn't tell us anything about the person that we couldn't already assume was true.

Sure, you could introduce even more nuance. Create more choices. The woman who isn't as good looking as the first but better looking than the third, and whose personality is more pleasant than the first but less than the third. The woman who is better looking than the second but less than the third, and whose personality is less pleasant than the second but more than the third. However, at this point you're arguably creating too many options to be able to gather reliable data.

Sure, the response might be more accurate this way if I only ask one person the question, but what if I plan to ask a thousand people? Too many options can confuse the matter and force people to delay their response long enough that they move beyond their "gut" response. Plus, when I'm analyzing the data later, nuanced responses clutter things up. If I only care about the question, "Do people prefer looks or personality?", then I know how to rate responses one and two. I add one to the corresponding column. How do I rate the other responses though? Should I add 0.5 to both columns for the third response; is it reasonable to add 0.25 to one column and 0.75 to the other for responses four and five? What if you picked option five, but what you intended was 0.333 in one column and 0.666 in the other? What level of simplification am I to allow for?

Perhaps then, it's better to begin with a simple question, with only two responses. That way, peoples' gut reactions can draw them to the choice they like better. After all, the only thing I'm interested in is whether people prefer lone wolf or team oriented characters more. I don't really care that folks prefer both aspects in their D&D characters because I've already assumed that to be the case. I fully intend to design characters that strike some balance between those two poles. You can gather that much just from the article.

If you choose the third choice (not to be counted), then you've simply chosen not to be counted. I seriously doubt that Monte Cook expects L&L to reach every D&D player out there. So you simply become part of the unknown demographic. Again, the existence of such a demographic is reasonably assumed.

In any case, I don't expect this is serious market research. This is a designer trying to get the roughest of measurements on the way the wind is blowing in the D&D community. Listen to the tone of article. It's more like he's spit balling ideas, like he might do at a brainstorming meeting with fellow designers about possible directions D&D might go. The kind of thing they might do before they design a single rule. The only difference is that we happen to be invited to take part in these meetings.
 
Last edited:

You'll note that I specifically exempted Second Wind!
I may have missed that!

Inspiring words are a very different beast to healing, though. IMO, these should be modelled with some sort of bonus to hit, or AC, or something of the sort, and not with the healing of hit point damage. (Because, despite what the books say to the contrary, this latter is bound up with physical damage in the minds of too many players, and that association cannot reasonably be broken.)

Otherwise, you open the door to the Bard causing hit point damage (and potentially death) to the enemy with a vicious taunt
The 4e module that comes with the Monster Vault, in describing the fight with the dungeon overlord (the Winter King) explains how much damage can be inflicted using Intimidate and Bluff. I think this is the 4e designers realising how to consistently implement there own system!

I think a GM could reasonably rule that the damage inflicted by Intimidation or Bluffing cannot kill (but only disable, as per the unconsciousness at 0 hp rules). A bard, on the other hand, is using magic, and I've got no trouble with a Bard speaking words that not only dishearten but kill their enemies (this seems more consistent with much mythology - at least northern and western European mythology - than do magic missiles and fireballs).

Whether the player base is, in general, capable of separating hit point damage from physical injury I don't know. Obviously some are not (as per the current thread in General on the topic). Equally, some others are. I don't know who is more typical.
 

The 4e module that comes with the Monster Vault, in describing the fight with the dungeon overlord (the Winter King) explains how much damage can be inflicted using Intimidate and Bluff. I think this is the 4e designers realising how to consistently implement there own system!

Indeed. IMO it's a lousy system, but at least it's consistent.

A bard, on the other hand, is using magic, and I've got no trouble with a Bard speaking words that not only dishearten but kill their enemies

I can see that argument, though personally I do not like it. YMMV, of course.

But fair enough, I'll soften my previous stance. If we take 'healing' to actually mean, well, healing, then: In-combat healing is an abomination.

:)
 

/snip

Leaders are frankly pretty much porked. A STR cleric can fall back on bashing things, but he's going to have a rough time. Warlords are neigh useless on their own. Bards are nearly in the same boat in combat as the warlord, though at least in other situations they have a deep skill list to fall back on in general.

That really depends on build. Warlords have a fair bit of striker in them, mostly because of a very high strength and a number of their powers can buff themselves as well as others. Don't get me wrong, a warlord is best in a group, but, on his own, a warlord isn't useless.

Strikers are a very mixed lot. The barbarian is fairly tough and has some awesome nova potential, so he can maybe bull through. The rogue can sneak around and play sniper. The others are all kinda iffy though. Warlocks are pretty much dead meat, though there are so many possible builds there it is hard to generalize. The melee ranger is probably worst off of anyone. The bow ranger can at least hope to cause significant pain before he's cornered. Beast Masters are probably best off.

Gonna disagree with you on the Warlocks. Faelocks are extremely difficult to pin down and you can potentially drive your AC into the stratosphere, making you very hard to hit. Combine that with all the debuff style attacks that warlocks get and you can hold your own for a while at least.

The rest of your points I agree with. Just quibbles here really.
 

IMO it's a lousy system, but at least it's consistent.
FWIW, my view is that this is the only way that a hit point system can be consistent. Hit points - in any configuration I have seen them placed in* - representing bodily damage just don't make any sense to me at all from a "realism" angle. If "damage" is to represent actual physical harm directly, I would want to see one of two options:

1) Wounds are represented as separate attributes that adhere to a character, potentially both hindering and endangering them, until they are healed, or

2) All "hit" effects are handled via "conditions" that have specific effects and durations (including "save ends" and the like as "durations").

*: Here I include "health tracks" of the sort used in World of Darkness, which are just hit points by another name (with all characters having the same number of them) and "fatigue/body" systems such as those in DragonQuest, SWd20, C&S and many other systems. I have yet to see any 'hit point' system that tries to be either realistic or Simulationist really succeed.

On "solo characters", I don't think any class in 4E works really well, but I see few real loners in action adventure sources, anyway. Companion Characters (per DMG2) seem like a good way to add a "sidekick" that would make a solo player game work fine, to me.
 

Now if 5th edition rolls next year, or even the year after that, 4th edition will have been the shortest edition of D&D yet.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to cite it incorrectly...

Dungeons & Dragons (white boxed set) - Released 1974
Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual - Released 1977
Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set (blue box) - Released 1977

Three years after the birth of the game, we already had the two version split between BD&D and AD&D. So, no, 4 or 5 years would not be the shortest lifespan of an edition of D&D (not even counting 3.5 as a separate edition).
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top