XPH: Elan Balanced?

[Jimlock]

DAAMNNN!!!

I HATE PSIONICS!!!

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION], please do me a favor if you may...

Stop arguing with me on whether Elans are broken or not and please create the most broken core Wizard you can think of... and blast those Psions away... I beg you...

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I need popcorn for this thread.

*Goes to Microwave*

Didn't we have this conversation?

I still think the Warforged kicks the Elan's fanny in terms of a powerful, LA +0 race. I mean, they don't need to BREATHE. And are immune to stuff, and stuff.

 

[Dandu]

DAAMNNN!!!

I HATE PSIONICS!!!

@Dandu , please do me a favor if you may...

Stop arguing with me on whether Elans are broken or not and please create the most broken core Wizard you can think of... and blast those Psions away... I beg you...

Let me put things into perspective for you: human sorcerer trumps elan psion any day of the week.

Now, you have asked me to stop debating and post a build. I would like to ask you to do the same; would you kindly make an elan psion with SRD/XPH psionics and show me how it's done? After all, as you seem to know more than me - and the entirety of the character optimization community - about how broken the psionics system is, I trust you will be able to demonstrate your learning and put all doubt away?

 

[Jimlock]

-NO... ARE YOU ALL....EMMM... OPTIMIZERS?..

 

[Wyvernhand]

ZOMGOGGLEZ, PALADINS ARE SO BROKEN, THEY GET TO ADD THEIR +CHA TO SAVES ALL THE TIME. THATS LIKE, 12 BONUS FEATS WHEN YOU COMPARE IT TO GREAT FORTITUDE, IRON WILL, AND LIGHTNING REFLEXES!!1!!eleven!!!!1

Shiney on the outside, not so impressive when you really get down to it. Sorry.

 

[Dandu]

Monks get ALL GOOD SAVES and EVASION! That means they are an OVERPOWERED MUNCHKIN CLASS1

 

[Jimlock]

Let me put things into perspective for you: human sorcerer trumps elan psion any day of the week.

That's not really core is it?

...

Now, you have asked me to stop debating and post a build. I would like to ask you to do the same; would you kindly make an elan psion with SRD/XPH psionics and show me how it's done? After all, as you seem to know more than me - and the entirety of the character optimization community - about how broken the psionics system is, I trust you will be able to demonstrate your learning and put all doubt away?

Oh, come on! I'm no optimizer. It would take me ages, I'm probably bad at at... and lets face it, you would destroy me.

But putting builds in the ring is not the only way to criticize whether something is broken.
Moreover, what I find a bit confusing is your view (and I don't think that I 'm taking a wild guess here), that only optimizers can really know what's balanced and what isn't.
Most players out there are not into min-maxing.
Either the don't like it, or they are just not good at at... or they just don't have the time to spend.
Whatever the case, those people are fully capable of being judgmental in respect to balance, and being right at that...
Why?
Because by digging up an unbelievably broken combo, (be that even if its an SRD combo only), and by setting it/baptizing it as "the most powerful thing ever" does not mean that anything else bellow it is "balanced".
Apart from broken "combos" there are also plenty of broken stuff in the books that do not have to be optimally combined so as to prove their worth. Sometime's its the obvious choice the rookie player will make... Sometimes its the single choice of a single PrC, a single feat and so on.... I hope I'm getting my point across.

If you feel that my refusal to post builds proves you've won, or that you are right, then I gracefully bow before your grace and hand you the 1st prize cup.

As far as Elans go, I've made my points in my previous post, and that is as far as I'm willing to go to prove how they shouldn't be a LA+0 race.

Sorry to disappoint you by not posting a build.

 

[Dandu]

That's not really core is it?

Neither is psionics.

Not that a core build helps your case.

Oh, come on! I'm no optimizer. It would take me ages, I'm probably bad at at... and lets face it, you would destroy me.

But putting builds in the ring is not the only way to criticize whether something is broken.

Then why ask for a build in the first place?

Moreover, what I find a bit confusing is your view (and I don't think that I 'm taking a wild guess here), that only optimizers can really know what's balanced and what isn't.

Only in the sense that only physicists can really know how subatomic particals interact.

Most players out there are not into min-maxing.
Either the don't like it, or they are just not good at at... or they just don't have the time to spend.
Whatever the case, those people are fully capable of being judgmental in respect to balance, and being right at that...
Why?
Because by digging up an unbelievably broken combo, (be that even if its an SRD combo only), and by setting it/baptizing it as "the most powerful thing ever" does not mean that anything else bellow it is "balanced".
Apart from broken "combos" there are also plenty of broken stuff in the books that do not have to be optimally combined so as to prove their worth. Sometime's its the obvious choice the rookie player will make... Sometimes its the single choice of a single PrC, a single feat and so on.... I hope I'm getting my point across.

I agree, you don't have to be an optimizer to notice when something is broken. And there are broken things in psionics. That being said, there are not more broken things than in the Core, and, in fact, there are quite a few less things, which is why I find the whole notion that psionics is somehow more unbalanced than core to be ridiculous because this is one of those things that can be mathematically demonstrated to be false.

The reason I asked you to make an build was because theories are just that, theories - but it is actual application that separates the wheat from the chaff. Incidentally - and you may find this interesting - Psionics vs Arcane is a topic that has been discussed previously on WotC forums, and it turns out human wizards are more powerful than elan psions.

I suggest once again that you actually obtain a working knowledge of the system you complain about before talking about how broken it is.

As far as Elans go, I've made my points in my previous post, and that is as far as I'm willing to go to prove how they shouldn't be a LA+0 race.

The points for Elans being LA +0 I have already posted, so I'm going to go ahead and complain about those damn humans.

Humans are unbalanced. My god, have you seen their racial abilities? A bonus feat. A BONUS FEAT! You know how many feats your average race has? ZERO! That's right, NONE! And a character only gets SEVEN feats from his HD! A human gets EIGHT! THAT'S ONE MORE THAN SEVEN! That's a 114% increase in the amount of feats! You know what you can do with that feat? Take strong combos at an earlier level than would otherwise have been possible! My god, the HUMANITY! THE HUMANITY!

 

[Dandu]

Could be interesting...
but I stopped reading once I got here:


Myth 4: Psychic Warrior is stronger than a fighter

No Comments.

Perhaps you should have read the whole thing through so as to have made an informed opinion?

Here it is in full. Pay attention now.

Myth 4: Psychic Warrior is stronger than a fighter
Answer: It is widely accepted that the fighter as a base class is underpowered after levels 4-6, and possibly before that. Arguing that another class is too strong based upon a widely-accepted weak class is not a valid comparison, for a few reasons:
The Psychic Warrior has fewer bonus feats, a lower BAB, very limited powers / power points, and a lower hit dice than the fighter, making the fighter an easier class to use to progress into a Prestige Class. In a straight comparison, a 20th level fighter versus a 20th level Psychic Warrior, the PsyWar is going to come out ahead, but I doubt most fighter characters are going to stay straight fighter, instead opting for prestige classes that grant other benefits.

Psychic warriors being stronger than fighters is not incorrect, but rather, that the psychic warrior is overpowered solely because it is more powerful than the fighter.

Now that we've cleared up that little misunderstanding, perhaps you should go back and read Tequila Sunrise's thread.

 

[kitcik]

OK, now it's on.

Human vs. Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale.