Area Dispel Magic and Ring of Counterspells

[Aluvial]

Here is a question that I just had come up in the game.

A player has a Ring of Counterspells with a Greater Dispel Magic in it. The BBNPC casts an area Greater Dispel Magic on the group. Does the ring counter the whole spell, or just keep the spell from affecting them?

Thanks,

Aluvial

 

[Greenfield]

Counterspells: This ring might seem to be a ring of spell storing upon first examination. However, while it allows a single spell of 1st through 6th level to be cast into it, that spell cannot be cast out of the ring again. Instead, should that spell ever be cast upon the wearer, the spell is immediately countered, as a counterspell action, requiring no action (or even knowledge) on the wearer’s part. Once so used, the spell cast within the ring is gone. A new spell (or the same one as before) may be placed in it again.
Moderate evocation; CL 11th; Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; Price 4,000 gp.

Well, not much help from the SRD. "Cast upon the wearer" could be read as targeted or area.

If it triggers, it would counterspell the whole thing. That's what counterspell does. "just as a counterspell action" is the key phrase there.

COUNTERSPELLS
It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
How Counterspells Work: To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell.
(You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.)
If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.
To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.
Counterspelling Metamagic Spells: Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered
Specific Exceptions: Some spells specifically counter each other, especially when they have diametrically opposed effects.
Dispel Magic as a Counterspell: You can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, and you don’t need to identify the spell he or she is casting. However, dispel magic doesn’t always work as a counterspell (see the spell description).

Consider: Opponent casts Fireball at the group. Mage Counterspells. Does that countespell the entire fireball, or just create some sort of personal immunity?

By the rules, it negates the spell entirely.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I disagree with Greenfield. An area spell is not cast upon any persons, it is cast upon an area; so it cannot be read as "cast upon the wearer."

Does the ring counter the whole spell, or just keep the spell from affecting them?

The ring isn't triggered by area spells at all, so it does nothing in this case.

 

[Dandu]

I would not let an area dispel be countered by a ring of dispel magic.

I am open to arguments for doing so, but that is my current stance on the issue.

 

[Empirate]

I've always read "cast upon the wearer" as implying a targeted spell, or an effect spell that only affects one target (a ray, for example). Targeted spells that affect multiple targets (Slow or Magic Missile) would be entirely negated for all targets by my reading, though, since the ring acts as a counterspell.

 

[kitcik]

This thread shows a majority of people thinking a RoC would work on an AoE spell. HOWEVER, scroll down to Monte Cook's response...

 

[Jimlock]

I disagree with Greenfield. An area spell is not cast upon any persons, it is cast upon an area; so it cannot be read as "cast upon the wearer."



The ring isn't triggered by area spells at all, so it does nothing in this case.

This

 

[frankthedm]

The must be "target line" targeted interpretation is the more in line with how RAW tends to work. However, that interpretation also means a Ring of Counterspells can't protect against spells like fireball, lightning bolts and many others that it would have protected against in less legalistic editions of the rules.

But since RoC-Greater Dispel to protect ones buffs is super cheesy, I can get behind making the item as limited as possible.

 

[Aluvial]

The must be "target line" targeted interpretation is the more in line with how RAW tends to work. However, that interpretation also means a Ring of Counterspells can't protect against spells like fireball, lightning bolts and many others that it would have protected against in less legalistic editions of the rules.

But since RoC-Greater Dispel to protect ones buffs is super cheesy, I can get behind making the item as limited as possible.

I agree with you Frank. The cheese is high! I repeat, the cheese is high!

Anyhow, I read the description of the counterspell ring, which rthen efers to counterspelling. The act of counterspelling says that the act of counterspelling breaks the spells as it is cast, not as it effects. It prevents the casting of the spell at the time of the casting. (all this by memory) Here is the text that opens the counterspelling section in the PHB

It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell's energy to disrupt the casting of the spell by another character. (italics mine)

Here is the direct quote from the PHB about fireballs.

For example a fireball spell is effective as a counter to another fireball speel, but not to any other spell, no matter how similar. Fireball cannot counter delayed blast fireball or vice versa. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automaticlaly negate each other with no other results.

Here is some text about how area spells affect creatures

Creatures

A spell with this kind of area affects creatures directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you select. The area might be a spherical burst, a cone-shaped burst, or some other shape.

Does this line about each creature in an area being affected "like a targeted spell" mean that the creature who has an area spell cast "upon" them can counterspell? I don't want it to work this way.

I think everyone in the thread here is right about it not working, however, I don't think the rules support this/us. I have two PC's with these rings, and both have Greater Dispel Magic in them. Now, I have to cast three Dispel Magics to affect the group, who have a BAD habit of seeing an encounter, retreating, buffing, and then wiping out the ill-organized defenders. I read the opinion in the other post that the BOTH rings would fire if they had the same spell, which I like. I also read the opinion that the ring knows to counterspell even if the creature wearing wasn't aware of the attempt.

I play my intelligent enemies better... waiting out the buffs, creating lines of defenders to wear down the buffs... using a few wands of Dispel Magic with a few low level guys to wear down the protections... but tough smash and grab monsters don't stand a chance if they are just trying to protect their cozy little caves.

Aluvial