I don't get the dislike of healing surges

[Imaro]

D&D is a shared storytelling experience. For a few hours each week, participants can forget the office, school, or other laborious and mundane tasks. You get to be a shining knight or cunning thief, a powerful wizard or rampaging barbarian. The point of the game is to hang out with friends and play out epic stories that we can't otherwise accomplish in real life.

I loathe pretty much anyone that tries to detract from that point. The rules are a tool, and a means to an end. Play your game, but don't tell others they are doing it wrong. When you do that, or tell them their system isn't good enough, you're spitting in their face and diminishing their experience. Not cool.

Wasn't the entire marketing campaign leading up to and after 4e's release based around telling (certiain) consumers they were doing it wrong and that their chosen game wasn't good enough? Just saying...

 

[Mort]

Wasn't the entire marketing campaign leading up to and after 4e's release based around telling (certiain) consumers they were doing it wrong and that their chosen game wasn't good enough? Just saying...

The fact that WoTC did a horrible job marketing 4e, which led to hurt feelings all over the place, should not be relevant to this discussion - particullarly re: mechanics.

But to somewhat answer, their chosen marketing tactic likely hurt more than it helped and quite likely turned off people who otherwise might have tried and liked 4e (I can think of 2 people I know personaly who refused to try 4e strictly because of this marketing - talk about backfire!)

This means it should be looked on as what not to do, not as some weird "Well it's good enough for WoTC so.." example.

 

[Imaro]

The fact that WoTC did a horrible job marketing 4e, which led to hurt feelings all over the place, should not be relevant to this discussion - particullarly re: mechanics.

But to somewhat answer, their chosen marketing tactic likely hurt more than it helped and quite likely turned off people who otherwise might have tried and liked 4e (I can think of 2 people I know personaly who refused to try 4e strictly because of this marketing - talk about backfire!)

This means it should be looked on as what not to do, not as some weird "Well it's good enough for WoTC so.." example.

Well that's hard to do in a thread created by a 4e fan that essentially asks people for their negative opinion on an aspect of 4e... wouldn't you agree?

EDIT: What I find hard to believe is how many people felt the need to rush into this thread and defend healing surges or try to counterpoint peoples likes and dislikes. IMO, that's the problem. Now if the thread had been called something like... "Tell me why you don't like HS's and I'll see if I can help you with your issues"... well then I'd understand the response of 4e fans in this thread. But it's not.

 

[Mort]

Well that's hard to do in a thread created by a 4e fan that essentially asks people for their negative opinion on an aspect of 4e... wouldn't you agree?

Not really no.

The OP clearly likes 4e and healing surges and was having a hard time seeing the down side that people often express (as is usual, when you like something a lot, seeing the negatives others see is not always easy). Wanting to see it in one place, he asked the question.

Now, I can see how this could be a bit flame-baitey. But as long as the discussion is kept civil there's just no problem. It's been many, many pages so I can't vouch for every post but the ones I've seen are quite civil. Mostly on the line of "here's why healing surges don't work for me."

Since this is a discussion thread there is also nothing wrong with taking those posts and saying "Hmm, that's doesn't work for you? I don't see it." And expanding from there.

Heck that's the definition of a fun afternoon for quite a few people (or in my case staving off the boredom while waiting for my late client to show up!).

 

[Imaro]

Not really no.

The OP clearly likes 4e and healing surges and was having a hard time seeing the down side that people often express (as is usual, when you like something a lot, seeing the negatives others see is not always easy). Wanting to see it in one place, he asked the question.

Now, I can see how this could be a bit flame-baitey. But as long as the discussion is kept civil. It's been many, many pages so I can't vouch for every post but the ones I've seen are quite civil. Mostly on the line of "here's why healing surges don't work for me."

Since this is a discussion thread there is also nothing wrong with taking those posts and saying "Hmm, that's doesn't work for you? I don't see it." And expanding from there.

Heck that's the definition of a fun afternoon for quite a few people (or in my case staving off the boredom while waiting for my late client to show up!).

Sure, but the so called "Doing it wrong." starts the minute someone comes in and tries to make people justify their likes and dislikes or tries to prove that those likes and dislikes are silly or that they don't really constitute much in the way of your play time (Though they have never played at your table a day in their life.). In other words instead of accepting and discussing your reasons they are now trying to dismiss them.

That's what I take from alot, though not all, of the healing surge fans in this thread, it's not about understanding people's reasons (because they often admit they do understand just not agree) it's about proving how unrealistic, or how corner case, or how absurd those reasons are and that's when people start to get frustrated... because you're now telling me I'm doing it wrong or my playstyle is a lie or whatever.

 

[Mort]

Sure, but the so called "Doing it wrong." starts the minute someone comes in and tries to make people justify their likes and dislikes or tries to prove that those likes and dislikes are silly or that they don't really constitute much in the way of your play time (Though they have never played at your table a day in their life.). In other words instead of accepting and discussing your reasons they are now trying to dismiss them.

That's what I take from alot, though not all, of the healing surge fans in this thread, it's not about understanding people's reasons (because they often admit they do understand just not agree) it's about proving how unrealistic, or how corner case, or how absurd those reasons are and that's when people start to get frustrated... because you're now telling me I'm doing it wrong or my playstyle is a lie or whatever.

That can happen in any discussion or disagreement, especially when people are as passionate about the subject (as the people here tend to be about gaming of course).

Even your post is attempting to lay blame ("the healing surge fans" part of your post can just as easily and just as accurately be subsituted with "healing surge detractors"), perhaps subconsciously. Likely because you are very passionate about gaming, which, considering we we are, is a good thing!

That said, I don't have much of a problem looking past that in posts and just looking at the argument itself - some, on both sides, are quite good (though naturaly, being pro healing surge I have my obvious bias).

This doesn't apply to Ad hominem of course, any poster resorting to anything resembling such needs to be dealt with (by the Mods and not other posters; this board is usually extremely good with that).

 

[Oryan77]

In 3e, it was called healing wands. Same effect.

If that was true, they wouldn't have put Healing Surges in 4e. Completely different things. I don't have any healing wand issues in my game cause I don't hand them out like candy. In 4e, there's nothing I can do about Healing Surges.

 

[Bedrockgames]

If that was true, they wouldn't have put Healing Surges in 4e. Completely different things. I don't have any healing wand issues in my game cause I don't hand them out like candy. In 4e, there's nothing I can do about Healing Surges.

The other issue is one is magic and one isn't, which is what is what creates the believability/consistency issue for many.

 

[Imaro]

That can happen in any discussion or disagreement, especially when people are as passionate about the subject (as the people here tend to be about gaming of course).

Even your post is attempting to lay blame ("the healing surge fans" part of your post can just as easily and just as accurately be subsituted with "healing surge detractors"), perhaps subconsciously. Likely because you are very passionate about gaming, which, considering we we are, is a good thing!

That said, I don't have much of a problem looking past that in posts and just looking at the argument itself - some, on both sides, are quite good (though naturaly, being pro healing surge I have my obvious bias).

This doesn't apply to Ad hominem of course, any poster resorting to anything resembling such needs to be dealt with (by the Mods and not other posters; this board is usually extremely good with that).

Perhaps blame does need to be attributed (especially when after all these posts certain people suddenly get snarky and want to pull the "You're telling me that I play wrong" card) , if this thread had been an invitation for pro-surgers to come in and help me understand why they like healing surges and a ton of peole who didn't like surges came in and started dismissing (as opposed to discussing) why they liked them I would say the same thing about them... especially if some of these same people started to pull that card in the discussion.

I feel like it's disingenuous to have been going back and forth about people's likes and dislikes for the entire thread and then all of a suddenly someone is called out for doing just that.

 

[Matt James]

If that was true, they wouldn't have put Healing Surges in 4e. Completely different things. I don't have any healing wand issues in my game cause I don't hand them out like candy. In 4e, there's nothing I can do about Healing Surges.

Why is there nothing you can do? I regulate Healing Surges in my game differently than is presented. You don't automatically get them back as soon as you wake up the next day. I do the same with Daily powers. One interesting revelation of this thread is that people immediately stop the buck at 4e in regards to regulation of the rules. Somewhere along the line, RAW became a sacred cow.