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13th Level Brawny Rogue -- which Encounter Power to lose?

Ah, sorry, perhaps I should have spelled out where low slash slides the foe 1 square away.

You're totally right. Under my combo, and assuming that you move in the opposite direction to where you slid the foe, you need to move 4 squares, leaving you 5 squares away from a foe who can at best move 2 squares and then charge 2 squares.

You are, of course, correct in all the particulars about how Low Slash works. But in combat I tend to spend effort trying to stay adjacent to enemies, rather then trying to move away from them. It's just the kind of guy my character is, and I find it easier to end up with Sneak Attacks that way.

Defensive advantage might not be the best plan if you're having problems getting CA. Two-weapon defense, shield proficiency or an armor proficiency might serve you better.
I wouldn't say I'm having problems, but I like having as many ways as possible to get CA. I fight with a dagger in one hand and a 10' pole in the other (because how cool is that?!) that the DM lets me use as a light shield. I've taken Shield Proficiency and Blade & Buckler Duelist to bump my defenses, and Toughness to boost my HP.


By defacto defender, do you just mean "the guy that all the monsters attack because noone else is in melee"? Or have you actually taken something to boost your defenderyness? There are some paragon paths that can boost a rogue up to defender-like levels of survivability (death dealer for a strength rogue - temp hitpoints every time you hit a bloodied foe) and some feats that give you defender-like stickyness (multiclass warden + grasping roots, that 'slow on a sneak attack' one etc). The avenger might do better in this department though (depending on what type of avenger he is...)
My character (Cobalt) serves as the Defender because a) we don't have a real one, and b) he's convinced that he can do it. He likes getting into monsters' faces, and he likes being the Guy That Protects His Friends, even if he ends up getting the $#@! kicked out of him on a regular basis. So, it's a role-playing thing as much as a practical thing.
 

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Sagiro, are you really looking for advice here, or for validation?

It seems to me that you're underplaying Low Slash (which should either serve as a powerful control ability on a melee enemy (not flanking) -- or an attack that is pretty likely to shorten the enemy's life by one turn (flanking), but you're justifying your choices here.

That you've been playing your character as a pseudo-defender is useful information (although Rogues are far and away the second worst melee class I can think of for pseudo-defender -- the first being shadow Assassins), but keep in mind that a defender is just a controller who gets hit a lot. So it might be worth considering playing your character a bit smarter -- and having him sometimes protect his friends by forcing an enemy to attack -nobody- rather than by forcing them to attack -him-.

It seems to me that if Low Slash is consistently underpreforming Dazing Strike, then you're A. Not using LS when you should (because the best condition is -dead-), and B. having combats that go on too long.

Also, it's worth repeating that in the round in which Dazing Strike is currently a killer, Stunning Strike will do exactly the same thing.

Also, given the group dynamics, you should have the Cunning Stalker Feat ASAP (gain combat advantages on creatures you're the only creature next to). If you do/did, then you could reliably use Low Strike to gain combat advantage by sliding a creature away from tis allies, and then stabbing it.
 
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Sagiro, are you really looking for advice here, or for validation?
A strange question, given that when I posted I hadn't made up my mind, and that my inclination has shifted somewhat since it started, and that I still haven't made up my mind. I apologize if I seem argumentative; I'm just trying to provide more possibly-relevant information to those who are kind enough to be giving advice.

It seems to me that you're underplaying Low Slash (which should either serve as a powerful control ability on a melee enemy (not flanking) -- or an attack that is pretty likely to shorten the enemy's life by one turn (flanking), but you're justifying your choices here.
It's entirely possible that I'm under-utilizing Low Slash, as I think I've admitted above. I'm not sure I'd call Slow a "powerful control ability" (I'd reserve that term for dazing, stunning and restraining) but I might be undervaluing it, especially given our collective dearth of control. But remember -- I very seldom miss in combat. That means I'm not likely to get Sneak Attack damage on a Low Slash (unless I use an AP, but I usually save those for the Knockout/Bloodbath combo.)

Despite that, I think you're generally correct -- I tend to think of Low Slash as "my minor attack" and not "my attack that slows and slides enemies." I should realign my thinking.

That you've been playing your character as a pseudo-defender is useful information (although Rogues are far and away the second worst melee class I can think of for pseudo-defender -- the first being shadow Assassins), but keep in mind that a defender is just a controller who gets hit a lot. So it might be worth considering playing your character a bit smarter -- and having him sometimes protect his friends by forcing an enemy to attack -nobody- rather than by forcing them to attack -him-.
Oh, I'm certain that Rogues make rotten Defenders. That wasn't a choice made with any kind of serious optimization in mind.

When it comes time to pick an encounter power to use, my thinking is usually like this: which is more important right now?
A) doing a small amount of extra damage, plus slowing (which will keep the enemy from escaping), plus sliding
B) inflicting daze, which limits the enemy to one action, gives everyone else +2 to hit, and guarantees me a sneak attack next round.

Sometimes the monster isn't planning on fleeing (or even moving much), and sometimes I don't have any better place for the monster right now. In those cases, Low Slash loses some value. In fairness, sometimes the monster only has one action it wants to take, so that part of Daze doesn't matter. And sometimes I'll be able to get sneak attack anyway. Perhaps it's a function of the DM's monsters, which very often take multiple actions in a round.

It seems to me that if Low Slash is consistently underpreforming Dazing Strike, then you're A. Not using LS when you should (because the best condition is -dead-), and B. having combats that go on too long.

Also, it's worth repeating that in the round in which Dazing Strike is currently a killer, Stunning Strike will do exactly the same thing.
This last is an excellent point. Retaining Low Slash certainly gives me more flexibility.

Also, given the group dynamics, you should have the Cunning Stalker Feat ASAP (gain combat advantages on creatures you're the only creature next to). If you do/did, then you could reliably use Low Strike to gain combat advantage by sliding a creature away from tis allies, and then stabbing it.
More info: I think the Avenger might be put out by me sliding enemies away from him. Our group dynamics are a little hard to pin down, and our fights tend to vary. 2.5 of us like to be next to the monster (me, the avenger, and the ranger sometimes.) The other three do not (sorcerer, shaman, wizard). Between the monsters coming to us, and the avenger's tendency for adjacency, I'm almost never the *only* one next my target. Low Slash/Cunning Stalker is a nice combo, though, which I hadn't considered.

Anyway, thanks for giving me more opinions to chew upon!
 

A strange question, given that when I posted I hadn't made up my mind, and that my inclination has shifted somewhat since it started, and that I still haven't made up my mind.
Fair enough -- I was trying to acknowledge that you were clearly trying to give extra info on the game and the setup as it plays, but some things did keep coming back to "but this is how I've been playing so far."

I apologize if I seem argumentative; I'm just trying to provide more possibly-relevant information to those who are kind enough to be giving advice.
Likewise; sorry if I seemed argumentitive; just trying to give useful advice!

4 It's entirely possible that I'm under-utilizing Low Slash, as I think I've admitted above. I'm not sure I'd call Slow a "powerful control ability" (I'd reserve that term for dazing, stunning and restraining) but I might be undervaluing it, especially given our collective dearth of control. But remember -- I very seldom miss in combat. That means I'm not likely to get Sneak Attack damage on a Low Slash (unless I use an AP, but I usually save those for the Knockout/Bloodbath combo.)

Sure, but in a flank, it comes with its own pseudo-Sneak Attack damage in the form of an extra stat bonus to damage. I think it's a situational control ability, but powerful -- any control ability that prevents a monster from acting is powerful!

Despite that, I think you're generally correct -- I tend to think of Low Slash as "my minor attack" and not "my attack that slows and slides enemies." I should realign my thinking.
I do the same thing with Avenger's Fury -- despite being Unity! But avengers play differently, after all; they tend to accumulate large static bonuses to damage, making it much more tempting to load up the minor action attacks.

When it comes time to pick an encounter power to use, my thinking is usually like this: which is more important right now?
A) doing a small amount of extra damage, plus slowing (which will keep the enemy from escaping), plus sliding
B) inflicting daze, which limits the enemy to one action, gives everyone else +2 to hit, and guarantees me a sneak attack next round.
Sure, but why make it a choice? Minor Action attack, after all; should generally be used in a nova round after a daily.

Sagiro;5720094 said:
This last is an excellent point. Retaining Low Slash certainly gives me more flexibility.
Yeah. I kept repeating that one, because it's well worth repeating.

More info: I think the Avenger might be put out by me sliding enemies away from him. Our group dynamics are a little hard to pin down, and our fights tend to vary. 2.5 of us like to be next to the monster (me, the avenger, and the ranger sometimes.) The other three do not (sorcerer, shaman, wizard). Between the monsters coming to us, and the avenger's tendency for adjacency, I'm almost never the *only* one next my target. Low Slash/Cunning Stalker is a nice combo, though, which I hadn't considered.

Sure! I know my Avenger is constantly being denied a nova round by having my target picked off before I get to start next to them with them still as my oath target (although I do still have the utility that lets me shift a pile of squares to end next to my oath target when they end their turn not next to me, so...).



OTOH, if you're focusing on the Avenger's target, you can -probably- get a flank out of him. Its when you are targeting a creature that he -isn't- next to that it would seem to make the most sense to use the Low Slash/Standard Action attack with Cunning Stalker trick. Actually, it's worth noting that looking at that lineup, one can probably focus fire too much. The wizard and sorcerer (which given that you say you're low on control, I'm assuming are both blasters) tend to favor focusing on groups of enemies, not single enemies.

And at least in my experience, paragon Avengers are -enourmously- action hungry; I know my Avenger won't generally activate his repelling armor (whatever it's called) [ooh. Another use of Low Slash -- peeling an extra enemy away from the Avenger to help him get his Oath on. Cooperation, n'est pas?] until the third round of combat at best, because all my minor/move actions are spoken for on at -least- the first two rounds of combat--and that's worse if my first target drops before I get a second round. So that might be another reason to, early in a combat, pick a different target than the Avenger. Sure, one monster might get a second turn that it wouldn't get otherwise -- but it means that everyone gets more focus time (screen presence is useful!) and even from an optimization POV, if two monsters drop in the 2nd round, that's probably -better- than a single monster dropping in the first round with more resources spent on it and less stuff available for a 2nd round.

Anyway, thanks for giving me more opinions to chew upon!

Sure, hope this all helps!
 

My character (Cobalt) serves as the Defender because a) we don't have a real one, and b) he's convinced that he can do it. He likes getting into monsters' faces, and he likes being the Guy That Protects His Friends, even if he ends up getting the $#@! kicked out of him on a regular basis. So, it's a role-playing thing as much as a practical thing.

It's kind of a shame you're not a charisma rogue - strong-arm enforcer sounds like it would have fit you to a T! Marking and temporary hitpoints whenever you hit a foe, plus a bit of extra damage. But quite an overhaul unfortunately.

Given what you've said, it sounds like defensive advantage would suit you quite well.
 

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