Too many TPKs?

[jonesy]

Players could consider running away more often.

No kidding. There seems to be this assumption that it is the DMs job to save the characters if things go overboard too much.

Plan for the eventuality of battle, but also plan for what to do if you find you can't win. It's not just the bad guys who need exit strategies.

Block the tunnel behind you as you run. Burn the house down. Kill the bridge. Teleport away. Fly, you fools.

 

[Desdichado]

Playing suboptimally is not the same as sabotage. But I don't think it's unreasonable for a DM to assume that the fighter will attack the monsters, or the cleric will heal, or the wizard will cast spells.

If your group insists on not even doing that much, then I don't see how it's possible for the DM to avoid TPKs and still offer challenging combat.

Like, if you play a wizard who prefers casting illusions, the DM can take that into account when creating an encounter. But if you play a wizard who randomly choses to not cast any spells in a given encounter, then an encounter the DM thought was well balanced will end up in a TPK.

With our group, it might be somewhat unreasonable. The classes are not straitjackets for expected behavior, and it actually kind of annoys me when they're expected to be. Like in our Age of Worms game and I had to keep reminding everyone that my Rogue was not a "thief" he was a con-artist and shyster loosely based off of Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis's gender-bender hide-out in Some Like it Hot. Whenever we were in dungeons and I was expected to be sneaky, I had to remind everyone that's not what I did.

Or the wizard we had who had the firm belief that he was a dwarf reborn in the wrong body. He was a tall, skinny, Ichabod Crane like fellow who charged into combat with an urgosh.

 

[Mort]

No kidding. There seems to be this assumption that it is the DMs job to save the characters if things go overboard too much.

Plan for the eventuality of battle, but also plan for what to do if you find you can't win. It's not just the bad guys who need exit strategies.

Block the tunnel behind you as you run. Burn the house down. Kill the bridge. Teleport away. Fly, you fools.

The problem is some DMs (and frankly some systems and game mechanics) make it very difficult to run from a fight. If the party tries to run and fails to run enough times, eventually they (and by they this usually refers to the players not just their current characters) stop trying!

But yes if fleeing is an option, players need to recognize and use it more.

 

[jonesy]

The problem is some DMs (and frankly some systems and game mechanics) make it very difficult to run from a fight. If the party tries to run and fails to run enough times, eventually they (and by they this usually refers to the players not just their current characters) stop trying!

But yes if fleeing is an option, players need to recognize and use it more.

What's your point? When things go south saving the characters is nobody's responsibility? Every fight has to be to the death? Don't play with bad DM's? NPC's get to run, but PC's don't? Game mechanics should or shouldn't allow for escape?

Besides, you are the one talking about fleeing villains in the narrative control thread. A lot. If the villains get to flee, why dissallow the same for the PC's? And if nobody gets to flee combat is a deathtrap. Or pointlessly easy.

 

[Mort]

What's your point? When things go south saving the characters is nobody's responsibility? Every fight has to be to the death? Don't play with bad DM's? NPC's get to run, but PC's don't? Game mechanics should or shouldn't allow for escape?

Besides, you are the one talking about fleeing villains in the narrative control thread. A lot. If the villains get to flee, why dissallow the same for the PC's? And if nobody gets to flee combat is a deathtrap. Or pointlessly easy.

Huh? Why the vitriol?

At no point did I say PCs fleeing = bad.

I said that some DMs make it difficult for PCs to flee and so the PCs don't, even when the DM wants them to (because they've been conditioned not to).

In fact, I made it a point to agree with you - PCs should flee when they are overmatched. Just that the DM should make sure 1) to let the players know fleeing is usually an option 2) to actually let them flee.

 

[jonesy]

Huh? Why the vitriol?

At no point did I say PCs fleeing = bad.

I said that some DMs make it difficult for PCs to flee and so the PCs don't, even when the DM wants them to (because they've been conditioned not to).

In fact, I made it a point to agree with you - PCs should flee when they are overmatched. Just that the DM should make sure 1) to let the players know fleeing is usually an option 2) to actually let them flee.

I don't see any vitriol. I really couldn't see what the point was. I'm still not sure.

You were quoting me talking about the odd assumption that the DMs job is to save the characters if things go bad.

And now you are saying that some DM's make escape hard, but still want the players to try it? Huh?

 

[Mort]

I don't see any vitriol. I really couldn't see what the point was. I'm still not sure.

You were quoting me talking about the odd assumption that the DMs job is to save the characters if things go bad.

And now you are saying that some DM's make escape hard, but still want the players to try it? Huh?

Your post (perhaps I misread it) seemed to be about the players needing to know (and planning for) when to run.

I agreed with that.

I just pointed out that it's hard to do (running from a fight) when the DM makes it hard for the players to do so. Nothing more than that.

Oh and while I actually did not say it - it's true: Some DM's expect the PCs to run, and yet make it very difficult to actually do so.

Or another way: It is not (and should not be) the DMs job to save the characters; however, it is the DMs job to ensure that the characters have at least some means to save themselves.

 

[Elf Witch]

Your post (perhaps I misread it) seemed to be about the players needing to know (and planning for) when to run.

I agreed with that.

I just pointed out that it's hard to do (running from a fight) when the DM makes it hard for the players to do so. Nothing more than that.

Oh and while I actually did not say it - it's true: Some DM's expect the PCs to run, and yet make it very difficult to actually do so.

Or another way: It is not (and should not be) the DMs job to save the characters; however, it is the DMs job to ensure that the characters have at least some means to save themselves.

I had a DM make it impossible to ever run. If you did you would find you way blocked by enemies you didn't know where there.

Once I tried to withdraw out of combat just far enough away to rummage through my pack for a healing potion I was down to 1 hit point. He kept one of the bad guys on me to the point that I was backed against a wall and then the bad guy killed me.

 

[jonesy]

I had a DM make it impossible to ever run. If you did you would find you way blocked by enemies you didn't know where there.

Once I tried to withdraw out of combat just far enough away to rummage through my pack for a healing potion I was down to 1 hit point. He kept one of the bad guys on me to the point that I was backed against a wall and then the bad guy killed me.

I don't even know how to begin to describe how messed up that sounds.

Even Final Fantasy videogames, which have some of the highest ratios of battles you HAVE to complete, leave you the option of trying to flee most (and then come back more prepared).

 

[S'mon]

Huh? Why the vitriol?

At no point did I say PCs fleeing = bad.

I said that some DMs make it difficult for PCs to flee and so the PCs don't, even when the DM wants them to (because they've been conditioned not to).

What kind of things do DMs do to make fleeing impossible? Elf Witch's "invisible enemies appear" thing sounds horrible.

Personally, IMCs it's usually possible to flee - NPCs often do, PCs too.