Too many TPKs?

[Niccodaemus]

I was making encounters much too lethal and not adjusting to the players. I have since learned from that experience and I think have become a much more balanced GM.

That's one reason I don't have an issue fudging die rolls during a game. I chose the monsters, how many, etc...

If it spells doom for an entire party... I messed something up and don't have an problem correcting it during play.

 

[nedjer]

Reverse dungeons always struck me as a fun way to get different angles on this particular debate.

 

[howandwhy99]

My question is, by default, would you suspect the problem lies in the GM, the players, or be so neutral that the Swiss would be jealous?
SNIP
But what's your gut say when you hear a GM has a lot of TPKs with his group?

Think of it like a computer game where the players aren't making it through the first level. This occurs 5 times. Far past time to turn the difficulty down on this sucker, no?

This may be a play style issue, but it may simply be the GM has selected far too difficult a beginning scenario for the players to progress through.

However, is it the players? The thing is, it could be. Without context it gets harder to discern. Are they seeking a TPK? I think it should be possible, if that's the players objective. Sort of like, "Can I kill my character, if I try?" Well, yeah. It shouldn't be too difficult. And as a group effort this may just be why 5 TPKs occurred.

The often simple answer is: The GM is the proverbial "Killer DM". He or she simply enjoys killing the party's characters and that's why it happened. But, while that isn't impossible and people should keep their eyes open for such, it isn't an absolute certainty either.

 

[Corathon]

But I have a question. Do you have any ideas to not end the group or campaing IC a TPK happens?

Like the enemies can make characters prisioner, could be a dream, could travel back in time, etc. More ideas?

How about "the party is wished back by a mysterious archmage who was subtly written into their backstories early on and is using them as pawns in his conflict with another being of great power". Worked for me.

 

[Corathon]

To speak to the original post, it looks like in the case related by DonTadow that two of the players expect to do extremely stupid things in dangerous situations and still have everything come out OK. A game where that's the case is not a game I'd like to run or play. Of course, we only have one side of the story so the above analysis could easily be wrong.

In a general case its not possible to guess where the fault lies. Could be the DM, could be the players, could be a bit of both.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

How involved was character generation? If it was five minutes to roll 3d6, in order, pick class/race and weapon, come up with a name if the guy makes 2nd level ... then lots of TPKs sounds about right.

For a more modern sensibility, maybe not. I've run the gamut--it's all good with the right group.

 

[kitsune9]

Mine says that unless the players are particularly stupid (or aren't taking it seriously), the GM has failed to detect a style preference difference and may find he has no game soon.

I agree with this. As a GM, one wants to run a game that will challenge our players, make them think, or at least make the rewards for success feel truly earned. We want to create adventures just like what we read in books or see in the movies--fights in which everything rides on the line, but in this case, the PC's can fail, and fail spectacularly.

We also want to avoid cakewalks, because then our players get bored and to alleviate their boredom may start doing stupid things or at least not take the game seriously.

If I run a game and there's 5 TPK's, I'd really have to stop and think what's wrong. Are the encounters too powerful? Are the players just doing really stupid things? Am I just being an egotistical bastard hellbent on humiliating my players' efforts and stripping away all hopes of masculinity from their characters while laughing maniacally? "I'm the DM, hear me roar!"

I know my players and they sometimes make rash decisions, but for the most part they play smart, so if I end up with 3 TPKs (and still have a campaign), I know the problem would lie with me.

 

[Desdichado]

But what's your gut say when you hear a GM has a lot of TPKs with his group?

Mine says that unless the players are particularly stupid (or aren't taking it seriously), the GM has failed to detect a style preference difference and may find he has no game soon.

Though I respect the GM does all the work and thus can run things however he likes, if he fails to deliver the fun, he'll have no game, no matter how right he is.

Well, first I'd make the caveat that a TPK isn't necessarily something bad, and the fact that a campaign has had them doesn't necessarily mean that the player's aren't having fun. Again, as you say, more info needed first.

But assuming that it is bad and the player's don't want to end up in TPK situations, I'd agree with you.

 

[Janx]

Well, first I'd make the caveat that a TPK isn't necessarily something bad, and the fact that a campaign has had them doesn't necessarily mean that the player's aren't having fun. Again, as you say, more info needed first.

But assuming that it is bad and the player's don't want to end up in TPK situations, I'd agree with you.

It's great that most folks are cautious before passing judgement. I have a pretty decisive filter. So to me, hearing there's 5 TPKs with this GM makes me think there's a problem.

players who like TPKs or games that encourage them are edge cases (there are more sessions of TPK avoiding players than TPK-as-goal game designs being played).

Whether it's the GM or the player's fault? I'm inclined to think it's the GM's fault by that point, Something doesn't jive with players being that stupid. I can't imagine a GM putting up with such dumb players to make it to 3 TPKs.

Though I supposed it's equally odd that good players would put up with a crappy DM for 5 TPKs.

In the original story, it appears the fault is 2 stupid players causing the TPKs. I suppose that seems plausible. They could seem like decent folks, but somehow they drag the party down.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Not counting my first years as a DM, back in the murky '70s, I have only twice had more than one TPK with a single group.

More than a few of my groups have had one TPK, usually early on. (Famous last words: 'This is our first adventure, he wouldn't put anything really deadly in the first adventure!' )

Five... is likely a bad mix of GM and players, or possibly they are playing Paranoia, Call of Cthulhu, or All Flesh Must Be Eaten....

The Auld Grump