High-Tech Forces vs. High-Magic Forces

[kinem]

It depends a lot on what kind of magic and monsters the fanatsy forces have available. I'll assume a 3.X/PF scenario.

Things that would be very effective against modern forces includes:

- Incorporeal undead (wraiths, spectres, shadows) require magic to harm, they can enter through any barrier such as tank walls, and they reproduce when they kill. This is best kept in reserve as a 'nuclear option' though since the resulting area would be pretty much uninhabitable except for undead.

- Commune: Who controls the modern forces? Discern location. Scry. Greater invisiblity. Greater teleport. Dominate Person. We now control the modern forces. (Or just take out some leaders & threaten to take out more. Undisclosed locations & deep bunkers pose no problems.)

- Once you understand how nukes work: Wish for one to arm and detonate in its silo, or just to teleport it & get your own.

- Pit fiends. Seriously. Can be gated in. Fireball at will, greater teleport at will. Even if nuked, will eventually regenerate - requires magic to kill. (It's reasonable to rule that a direct hit by a nuke would nevertheless kill it, but even then the kill radius for such a nuke would be far less than typical and nukes are not designed as anti-personnel weapons so the modern forces would probably just nuke the general vicinity which would not work. It can teleport away if it sees a threat coming.)

- Clerics. "Our gods are the true gods. Here's proof:" (raise dead, heal, etc.). "Now do as we say."

 

[mmadsen]

Which raises the question of how easy it is for each force to adapt and use the tactics and weapons of their foes.

The first few clashes should be interesting, as neither side really "gets" the other -- but I would give the magic-using force the advantage here, because they've presumably been scrying on the tech-using force, even if they don't understand everything they've seen or heard.

Where is the magic using dude getting the hand grenades?

Kaodi's idea of pulling the enemy's grenade pins is a great idea -- that wouldn't occur to the magic-using force until they'd seen, up close, how a grenade is activated -- and survived to tell the tale.

If the dimensional breach allowing the invasion happens in Utah, the initial response of "Nuke 'em"- especially if they come through on a weapons testing range- might be pushed to the front of the queue, but if it happened in Chicago, things get dicey very quickly.

I think the first reaction has to be, What the heck is going on? What are those things?

Anyway, I"m not sure you'd need to nuke 'em from orbit. Heavy artillery should destroy just about any "normal" D&D creature, right? As long as the crew isn't killed in their sleep or mind-controlled into wiping out their own forces.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think you may have misunderstood me. " Magic using dude " is not going to " get " the grenades. He is going to pull the pins while they are still on the enemy soldiers, .

No, I got that immediately.

I was just saying that just as the invaders can figure out mundane tech, it may be possible for the mundanes to figure out the stuff the invaders are using. The first thing might be CLW wands found on the battlefield, used by our own guys and maybe a few handed in for analysis by the propellerheads.

Then the US Army rolls out the H1 Healstick.

 

[wingsandsword]

I do hope that Wikipedia isn't your main source for historical information.

Well, as a site I can quickly cite for an informal internet debate, it does the job. I have a B.A. in History, my senior thesis was on the role of the Papacy in the Crusades. I am a stranger to neither formal historical research nor medieval studies. However, as a popular, widely used reference site that allows crowdsourced input I would strongly recommend you go in there and completely rewrite all articles regarding medieval warfare once you pull out the sources you are using to say that they are completely wrong and medieval armies were full of well trained professional soldiers instead of conscripts since you claim to be sitting on something fairly revolutionary in terms of evidence.

I think you're being very generous to the Iraqi army there. Try comparing full-time professionals from the middle ages with full-time professionals from the present day, and medieval 'conscripts' with modern conscripts.

I am a soldier in the United States Army, which is the standard I was using in referencing modern armies. I know quite well the standards of professionalism and training of modern militaries. If you want to use an Iraqi conscript or a member of the Afghan National Army as a "typical" modern soldier instead of a US Soldier or Marine, you're going to get completely different results given the radically different training standards.

Given that the structure of the armies is completely different, I think you are being misleading in trying to compare modern professional soldiers to the relative handful of trained knights of the middle ages, instead of comparing the backbones of those armies: the modern professional soldier to the historic conscript and comparing the elite of those armies: modern special forces to historic knights.

If you want to get game-mechanical about it, I once sat down and worked out using the stats for an M-16 in d20 Modern and the details of the standard US Army qualification firing course for that weapon to figure out what the average attack bonus of a soldier would be just to reliably graduate basic training and maintain routine qualification with an M-16 or M-4. . .I came up with a +4 bonus to reliably qualify with the weapon.

I'm no infantryman, I am not even combat arms, but I shoot pretty dang well with my weapon and I see cooks and mechanics, analysts and clerks regularly shoot 300 meter targets and score well. . .and I see infantry and other combat-arms soldiers shoot even better.

 

[mmadsen]

If you want to use an Iraqi conscript or a member of the Afghan National Army as a "typical" modern soldier instead of a US Soldier or Marine, you're going to get completely different results given the radically different training standards.

Radically different is putting it diplomatically.

If you want to get game-mechanical about it, I once sat down and worked out using the stats for an M-16 in d20 Modern and the details of the standard US Army qualification firing course for that weapon to figure out what the average attack bonus of a soldier would be just to reliably graduate basic training and maintain routine qualification with an M-16 or M-4. . .I came up with a +4 bonus to reliably qualify with the weapon.

So, if a marksman has a +4 bonus, how much better is a sharpshooter or an expert?

 

[korjik]

It depends a lot on what kind of magic and monsters the fanatsy forces have available. I'll assume a 3.X/PF scenario.

Things that would be very effective against modern forces includes:

- Incorporeal undead (wraiths, spectres, shadows) require magic to harm, they can enter through any barrier such as tank walls, and they reproduce when they kill. This is best kept in reserve as a 'nuclear option' though since the resulting area would be pretty much uninhabitable except for undead.

3.5 incorporeal isnt proof against physical attacks. At 8 rounds a second, a machine gun would disrupt incorporeal pretty quick. You could also use massive spotlights to make them powerless also.

- Commune: Who controls the modern forces? Discern location. Scry. Greater invisiblity. Greater teleport. Dominate Person. We now control the modern forces. (Or just take out some leaders & threaten to take out more. Undisclosed locations & deep bunkers pose no problems.)

Blam blam blam blam blam. Modern force now under its own controll. One high level mage disposed of.

- Once you understand how nukes work: Wish for one to arm and detonate in its silo, or just to teleport it & get your own.

Seeing as this takes about a decade, I would not worry about it. By that time the tech force simply wishes that its nukes arent affected by wishes.

- Pit fiends. Seriously. Can be gated in. Fireball at will, greater teleport at will. Even if nuked, will eventually regenerate - requires magic to kill. (It's reasonable to rule that a direct hit by a nuke would nevertheless kill it, but even then the kill radius for such a nuke would be far less than typical and nukes are not designed as anti-personnel weapons so the modern forces would probably just nuke the general vicinity which would not work. It can teleport away if it sees a threat coming.)

Blessed cold iron jacketed .50 cal rounds. Again tho, any hard enough hit will injure the Pit Fiend. A 155mm arty barrage would mess it up, to say nothing about heat seeking bombs.

- Clerics. "Our gods are the true gods. Here's proof:" (raise dead, heal, etc.). "Now do as we say."

Blam blam blam blam blam. Click, ping, thunk, WHOOSH.

Raise that. Thermite grenades would not even leave ash.

This whole thing depends on how the tech scales against the magic. Without any way of saying how it would scale, no example really makes any difference. I could say:

Spy sat on IR, company of MRLS. The magic guys dont even know they are under attack until everything explodes. By everything, I mean from horizon to horizon is nothing but boom.

.50 cal Sniper Rifle. Good Scope, good sniper. Mage casting a spell has his head explode, and cant detect any magic that caused it.

The mages keep casting lightning bolt and fireball on the flying metal dragons that keep breathing fire on the troops, but no damage is ever seen.

You can keep bringing up examples, and so can I. We dont really have any way to see if any of our examples are worthwhile.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Wingsandsword, what are your thoughts on how magic might be used to conduct psy-ops and the like (through enchantment and divination) against a modern military. For example using 3e or 2e how easy would it be for a magic user to disrupt the chain of command or take control of tge other side's forces.

Also greetings from a fellow history grad.

 

[wingsandsword]

Wingsandsword, what are your thoughts on how magic might be used to conduct psy-ops and the like (through enchantment and divination) against a modern military. For example using 3e or 2e how easy would it be for a magic user to disrupt the chain of command or take control of tge other side's forces.

Also greetings from a fellow history grad.

I think that one key problem is a language barrier. English (or whatever language local soldiers are speaking) is almost certainly NOT Common, Undercommon, Orc, Giant ect. This makes language-dependent spells less useful unless they also have Tongues up. The more prep-magic spells they have to spend every day, the less combat ability they will have.

The use of illusions, divination and enchantment will be a big advantage for the magic army, but just how much of it will they have? If you have a 9th level Cleric who can cast Commune and Raise Dead, you probably won't have an awful lot of them.

Also, if you assume that the magical invaders have high-level spellcasters, it is fair to assume that leaders and the elite of the non-magical army are equally high-level in non-magical PC classes, so they'll have good saves and probably their own abilities (the abilities of classes like Smart Hero, Field Officer and SpecOp from d20 Modern come to mind)

I think that the use of magic for intelligence gathering and psyops are the main advantage of a magical army, the biggest thing that the modern army will not easily counter.

On the battlefield, in a straight-up shooting war the modern army has an advantage. A modern US Soldier packs more destructive firepower than his non-magical historic equivalent and is better trained. The force multipliers of the spellcasters depend on how common they are. In most settings, spellcasters are fairly uncommon and magic items are also fairly limited. Unless it's Thay or some other magiocracy invading, I would expect casters to be a significant minority of the invaders.

I am kind of wondering about the idea of what if the magical army brings magic "with them", making magic possible in a mundane world through the process by which they invade. Chaplains find they get miracles happening (i.e. spells), some soldiers find they can make things happen by their will alone (Sorcerers and Wilders), ect. In that case the magical army will find that they have an initial advantage in training, but the modern army will have a long-term advantage in organization, professionalism, and tactics.

Honestly, the entire concept kind of reminds me of the old "Star Destroyer vs. Enterprise" threads on usenet from the '90's. Fun debates, but you'll never solve them because they come from completely different models of reality and changing even one assumption can completely change the results. Let's understand up-front that no definiative solution is possible because the results depend on so many different variables that can change the outcome.

 

[kinem]

3.5 incorporeal isnt proof against physical attacks. At 8 rounds a second, a machine gun would disrupt incorporeal pretty quick. You could also use massive spotlights to make them powerless also.

Read the 3.5 SRD or pick up a MM:

Incorporeal Subtype

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms.

The assumption obviously is that the modern force has no magic (at least to start; and what they can get is by taking from the enemy). Otherwise it's just a mixed tech/magic force which is trivially superior to either a modern or a magic force.

Blam blam blam blam blam. Modern force now under its own controll. One high level mage disposed of.

Korjik, just a style point here but your repetition of "blam" is annoying and does not stand you in good stead.

As for your statements they are clearly false. The mage could easily protect himself from bullets but in any case he wouldn't need to; the greater invisibility means that the moderns would have no idea he's even there.

Seeing as this takes about a decade, I would not worry about it. By that time the tech force simply wishes that its nukes arent affected by wishes.

You are vastly underestimating what high intelligence coupled with divination magic is capable of.

Blessed cold iron jacketed .50 cal rounds. Again tho, any hard enough hit will injure the Pit Fiend. A 155mm arty barrage would mess it up, to say nothing about heat seeking bombs.

Again, the moderrn force would have no access to blessed ammo, nor would they have any clue that it's what's needed. Apparently neither do you, since devils require silver, not cold iron.

Using d20 modern stats, bombs do a lot less damage than you think.

You can keep bringing up examples, and so can I. We dont really have any way to see if any of our examples are worthwhile.

Obviously a lot depends on the scenario, but you don't seem to even know the rules.

As for snipers vs. high level mages, that's what the contingency spell is for. And assuming he's a member of a a high level party, even blowing his head to bits would only take him out until the others bring him back. Or if he's a lich then he auto-ressurects as many times as he needs to.

As for shooting the clerics, that is obviously BS. The sides are obviously talking to each other at that point. Their magic is real and the moderns would see it. They might think it's of the devil, or they might be convinced and convert - that depends on a lot of factors, but I think a single high level cleric is all you'd need - send him ahead. He speaks the modern language just fine thanks to tongues spells. He gets the lay of the land, asks questions, gets on TV (no problem given that he sure can put on a show), gets tons of followers, soon enough he is running the whole place.

 

[wingsandsword]

You are vastly underestimating what high intelligence coupled with divination magic is capable of.

I think it is more assuming that magic will be used like it is normally used in D&D metaplot and fiction.

While you can sit and come up with absolutely perfect Commune questions and theoretically perfect magically augmented tactics that could tip the balance of a war, why is it that in the history of various D&D settings (novels, backstory, metaplot, adventures) we don't see these things ever used by NPC's in warfare? We don't see NPC's performing surgical strikes using high-level divination, teleportation and sabotage to decapitate regimes. D&D warfare has almost always depicted as being medieval warfare with a small amount of spellcasters which act like big cannons or high-powered medics.

Using d20 modern stats, bombs do a lot less damage than you think.

For reference, here are some stats for modern weapons systems from d20 Modern (since I do have those works around me to reference):

RPG-7 Rocket Propelled Grenade: 100 ft. Range Increment, 6d6 Damage with a 10 ft. blast radius ignoring the first 10 points of object hardness to the object actually struck (not objects in the blast radius).

M9 Pistol: 2d6 damage, 40 ft. range increment.

M-16A2: 2d8 damage, 80 ft. range increment

M2 Heavy Machine Gun: 2d12 damage, 110 ft. range increment, Autofire (may target a 10ft by 10ft area with a single attack, reflex DC 15)

Hellfire Missile: 15d6, 500 ft. range increment

Sidewinder Missile: 20d6, 1 mile range increment

Minigun: 4d10, 150 ft. range increment

Fragmentation Grenade: 4d6, reflex DC 15 for half

Thermite Grenade: 6d6 fire damage