• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

High-Tech Forces vs. High-Magic Forces

Krensky

First Post
Take a look at Weber and Evans' Multiverse books, Hell's Gate and Hell Hath No Fury.

A magical multidimensional empire and a technologic multidimensional empire meet and wind engaged up in a war without any real reason (not that there isn't a story reason, there's no legitimate reason for the powers to go to war other then fear and pride).
 

log in or register to remove this ad

mmadsen

First Post
Basically, you can't tell what's the most bang for the buck unless you see the price tag.
The price tag is denominated in (un)believability. You're designing a magical army that is believable (to fantasy fans who've bought in) and interesting and just powerful enough to challenge a modern force.

I suppose a key item might be "How fast can you breed a million rust monsters to drop on the tanks."
That's exactly the kind of thing that I would not base a story on -- unless I was writing a comedy piece for D&D players.

Another possibility is the RCD&D 3rd level magic spell Protection from Normal Missiles. If it was ruled that it works against bullets, things get a lot more interesting.
That seems like what's at work in the story, and it seems plausible, with a fairly big effect from a fairly small dose of magic. If we deflect a bullet one degree, it hits nothing of consequence.

In general, I think the magic team would do best to avoid toe-to-toe battles. With scrying, teleport, invisibility, charm, domination, etc, magic would be great at playing dirty tricks on the tech team. Taking out the tech teams generals over and over again would probably do good eventually. But I can't see them being able to hold ground against mass production: there just aren't enough casters in most campaign settings to do it.
Yeah, imagine a team of evil adventurers simply appearing in the modern HQ, killing everyone there, and then disappearing. I'm not sure they'd need a horde...
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Hmm. The M-16 can reliably kill a person at 300 yards vs. swords and bows (longest effective range of a longbow is circa ~250 yards)...

You're comparing two different things here, though the missunderstanding is less with you than it is with the existence of inconsistent definitions.

The 300 yards you quoted for an M-16 is more accurately the "maximum effective range on a point target". A bullet fired from an M-16 still has the energy to kill well beyond 300 yards (lethal range), it just can't be accurately aimed at a target beyond that point (less than 50% chance to hit).

The "maximum effective range on a point target" for a longbow would still be the same as for any bow and dependent on the skill of the archer...in the real world, most archers wouldn't attempt an aimed shot to kill of more than 40-50 yards, though a reeeeaaaallly good archer might be able to aim out to 60 or 70. For medieval combat, I'd say that "aimed" shots would be maxed out at 100 yards. Any shots beyond that range are area shots, not aimed at a specific target. Longbows were only lethal at 250 yards as concentrated group fire, i.e. medieval artillery, not as aimed shots on a point target.

One soldier with an M-16 and proper cover (fox hole or pit with plywood/pallet and sandbag cover), could eliminate an entire line of archers at 300 yards single handedly (as long as sufficient ammunition was available).

Soldiers without cover would be in for a world of hurt. A single soldier could probably get a few archers before being turned into a pin cushion.:)
 

Kaodi

Hero
A hail of arrows versus a tank obviously looks like a bad proposition until you figure that they would be phase arrows. No need to destroy the tank if you can shoot through the tank.

As well, can you imagine what havoc a single soldier with invisibility, silence and mage hand could cause to troops armed with pull pin grenades.

Even the tech armys air could be neutralized by well placed readied walls of force.

To begin to get a handle on how much magic the magical force could bring to bear, I think you have to first consider what it would look like if their magical education system matched our technological one. Public education for all, tens of thousands of wizards (their scientists and engineers).
 

D'karr

Adventurer
You might want to look at the Campaign Setting/Sourcebook Amethyst Foundations for a setting that mixes Fantasy with Technology. Imagine the feywild all of a sudden burst into our real life world and then have each "side" be antagonistic towards the other... Great fun ensues

A lot of these assumptions are being taken in sort of a vacuum. Opposing "generals" would look for ways of neutralizing, or diminishing the advantages of the other side's weapons. The modern "general" would want to fight in open spaces where their accurate targeting and longer ranges would be a huge advantage. The fantasy "general" would want to avoid fights in open spaces for the same reasons. Guerrilla warfare would probably be the type of combat scenario where the range of the modern weapons is not a huge advantage.

Look at urban warfare in WWII, against tanks, as well as now to see how a much smaller "poorly" equipped force can still wreak havoc in the modern battlefield.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
A hail of arrows versus a tank obviously looks like a bad proposition until you figure that they would be phase arrows. No need to destroy the tank if you can shoot through the tank.

Or Brilliant Energy weapons.

Or, on the flip side, Sonic/Subsonic weapons.

As well, can you imagine what havoc a single soldier with invisibility, silence and mage hand could cause to troops armed with pull pin grenades.

Which raises the question of how easy it is for each force to adapt and use the tactics and weapons of their foes. (Where is the magic using dude getting the hand grenades? And what if the US Army discovers how to make & use CLW wands? Or the Spear of Destiny?)

The modern "general" would want to fight in open spaces where their accurate targeting and longer ranges would be a huge advantage. The fantasy "general" would want to avoid fights in open spaces for the same reasons. Guerrilla warfare would probably be the type of combat scenario where the range of the modern weapons is not a huge advantage.

Yep.

Where the fight happens also matters hugely. If the dimensional breach allowing the invasion happens in Utah, the initial response of "Nuke 'em"- especially if they come through on a weapons testing range- might be pushed to the front of the queue, but if it happened in Chicago, things get dicey very quickly.

Look at urban warfare in WWII, against tanks, as well as now to see how a much smaller "poorly" equipped force can still wreak havoc in the modern battlefield.

Adaptability would be key.

Those poorly equipped forces of our world still understand implicitly what a "tank", "helicopter" or "bomber" is. They know how to react. Magically armed foes from beyond the veil of reality may not understand what to do until the tide of battle is irrevocably turned.

Similarly, fantasy types would know what an "elemental", "dragon" or "efreet" is, and that the guy in robes with a pointy hat and big stick is a real threat. A flight of F-14s could be taken down before they realized what the nature of the problem really was...
 

With magic it isn't the combat stuff like fireball that would tip the balance but the more unusual spells like wish, raise/animate dead, command, geas, teleport, etc.
 


Kaodi

Hero
Which raises the question of how easy it is for each force to adapt and use the tactics and weapons of their foes. (Where is the magic using dude getting the hand grenades? ... )

I think you may have misunderstood me. " Magic using dude " is not going to " get " the grenades. He is going to pull the pins while they are still on the enemy soldiers, :devil: .
 

If you're going to claim that a Knight was a typical medieval infantry instead of being elite cavalry, and that most soldiers were not poorly trained conscripts then I suggest you get your sources together and completely and totally rewrite all the relevant wikipedia articles:

Medieval warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Infantry in the Middle Ages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do hope that Wikipedia isn't your main source for historical information.

And I'm certainly going to claim that most medieval soldiers weren't poorly trained conscripts. Most were professionals, paid and maintained at the expense of a great noble. This was preferred to a feudal levy that would serve for it's designated period (forty days, in Normandy, for example) and then start drifting off home. The English recruited by Commission of Array, the French by Ban d'Ordonnance, and in Italy mostly by Condotta. Exceptions to that general rule can be found, usually in the form of civic militias which have their own training regimes that, if not leaving them equal to professional soldiers, would make them something more than barely trained conscripts.

Knights were usually mounted cavalry, occasionally heavy infantry and had a leadership role, more comparable to officers, Rangers and Cav squadrons on the modern battlefield. There is a reason that Knight is a PC class and footman is not: superior training. Armies aren't filled with thousands of people with PC classes.
Medieval armies often have thousands of 'knights' in them. Arguably of course some of those would have been senior squires and other professional men-at-arms, rather than proper knights, but the training would hardly be different.

Also, the Spartans were something of an outlier in terms of military skill. There is a reason that thousands of years later the term is still synonymous with martial prowess. I would hardly call them typical soldiers of the era. The Roman Legions, at their peak, were indeed highly trained and in some ways are still model for modern armies, but that was only at their peak instead of the bulk of the later Empire when their quality declined sharply.
I could come up with other examples. The Ten Thousand, the Sacred Band of Thebes, Alexander's Companions, the Varangian Guard, the Bucellarii, the White Company, the Catalan Grand Company, the stradioti, the Bande Nere...

The typical medieval infantryman: a spearman or archer serving only out of feudal obligation (i.e. a conscript) with access to poor medical care and token training, is far inferior to a professionally trained, modern soldier with modern immunizations, comprehensive physical training, and a focus on small-unit tactics over large massed battles. I'll stand by my assertion that at typical medieval peasant conscript footman, would be a Warrior 1, while a typical modern soldier would be a Warrior 3 or 4 in comparison.
I think you're being very generous to the Iraqi army there. Try comparing full-time professionals from the middle ages with full-time professionals from the present day, and medieval 'conscripts' with modern conscripts.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top