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Should charismatic players have an advantage?

Should charismatic players have an advantage?

  • Yes, that's fine. They make the game more fun for everyone.

    Votes: 47 44.8%
  • Only in limited circumstances, eg when they deliver a speech superbly.

    Votes: 29 27.6%
  • No, me hateses them, me does! *Gollum*

    Votes: 13 12.4%
  • Other (explain)

    Votes: 16 15.2%

Yes, in the same way that a player who is a better tactical thinker has an advantage and a player who better understands the game rules has an advantage.

I see little praise for RPGs being difficult to understand for that sake alone. I've seen praise for games that are difficult as a factor of being complex, but simple complexity is not a highly praised feature either; it's usually accepted only in service to another goal.

Unlike that, tactically complex games do get praise for that feature; at the same time, tactically simple games also are highly loved. It is not universally agreed that a better tactical thinking should have an advantage; a lot of games (both bookline-sense and at the table sense) would reward those who can come up with a good story more than those who can exploit the tactical rules to the best benefit.

He wouldn't get too far without his mechanical legs.

Last Friday, one of the players in my game forgot her glasses. Turns out you have a lot harder time playing D&D when you can't see the numbers on the dice. Is that unfair mechanical assistance? In any case, this isn't the Olympics; we're not here to compete, we're here to have fun.

I have a question on this, for Mort and other GMs. Say I want to play a charismatic barbarian Fighter, an REH-Conan type, ...
Is CHA 12 enough? Anything more than that will really start to hurt my combat effectiveness.

So what you're saying is that it's not fair for your character to be limited by the same rules everyone else is? In the Olympics, there's no reward for running fast if you're competing in the long jump; if you want to use your Charisma to its best extent, play a character that will let you do that, or a game that doesn't quantify Charisma.
 

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I only read the OP and the first few and last few posts, so sorry if this has already been discussed.

The OP says of our hero: "One player is likable, charming, a joy to be around. He roleplays his character superbly. Everybody likes him. The GM likes him."

In my experience, this combination, specifically the conjunction of the bolded part on the one hand and everything else on the other, rarely occurs.

Many people in our hobby, including some otherwise very smart folks who really should know better, conflate "role-playing" with "acting". My experience with players who have a high real-life CHA, or at least a significantly more forceful personality than the DM (which seems to do most of the things CHA does in-game), is that they will often do a magnificent job of acting... in the role of a character who differs significantly from the one written down on their character sheet. In particular, the character they play invariably has a much higher CHA than the one they're supposed to be playing.

These people are doing plenty of acting, but no role-playing whatsoever, and they are a pox on the hobby.
 
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I see little praise for RPGs being difficult to understand for that sake alone. I've seen praise for games that are difficult as a factor of being complex, but simple complexity is not a highly praised feature either; it's usually accepted only in service to another goal.
I said nothing about complexity for complexity's sake. I said that someone who better understands the rules of a game may get better results than someone who doesn't.

Unlike that, tactically complex games do get praise for that feature; at the same time, tactically simple games also are highly loved. It is not universally agreed that a better tactical thinking should have an advantage; a lot of games (both bookline-sense and at the table sense) would reward those who can come up with a good story more than those who can exploit the tactical rules to the best benefit.
And I didn't say that games which reward tactical thinking are preferable to those which don't. I said that a gamer who is a better tactical thinker will have an advantage, which presumes that I was talking about a game in which being a better tactical thinker confers an advantage.

So . . . thanks for sharing, I guess, but nothing you wrote seems to have anything to do with what I wrote.
 

Your second groups (in both cases) are doing it wrong.

If so, in the second case I don't want to be right!

Obviously mileage varies, I doubt I'd enjoy your games, and vice versa. Main thing is we enjoy our own games.

Yes, and that also the players enjoy them too. That's why I take group chemistry and cooperative mindset so seriously -- there are few rewards in the hobby like wrapping up a session with the players all complaining about laughing too hard, talking about the best bits from the game on the way to their cars, and excitedly anticipating the next session as a united front. For some people, the pigs are anathema to that, for others they're vital -- the main thing is that players get sorted into appropriate groups.
 

Yeah, somebody with actual skill that is applicable to the game will have an advantage over somebody who lacks it.

The GM isn't giving preferential treatment or game benefits, so much as the charming one is better able to maneuver the GM to his advantage socially.

It's sort of like the ability to read the GM. For example, if you know your GM has a strong emotional and intellectual hatred for slavery as an institution, you figure you can get away with murdering some slavers due to the GM not wanting to really punish that kind of behavior. Or the GM has a soft spot for the "prostitute with a heart of gold" character archetype, so you cultivate a few Streetwise contacts among the ladies of the night. It's a social skill, and one that's directly useful. And like charisma, it can be used for good (helping the entire group) or evil (wrangling preferential treatment at your fellow players' expense).

I have a lot of direct experience with this one, because my most devoted player is the woman I married. She can read me like a book, and often tells me she deliberately shuts up during sessions to avoid spoiling the rest of the party's surprise. (On the plus side, it means I become a better GM just because I have to learn new ways to surprise her.) Mostly she uses her power for good because she's very sensitive to the idea of preferential treatment. She really doesn't like the idea of acting on her ability to read me and then having other players assume that I was "humoring her guess".

You see this skill a lot in groups that have played together for a long time. To me, when you marry this with genre awareness you have the benchmark of a truly skilled player: the kind of player that can do equally well in an epic swashbuckler and a gritty resource-crawl, because he or she can recognize what tactics will match up with what the GM's looking for in each case.
 

I said nothing about complexity for complexity's sake. I said that someone who better understands the rules of a game may get better results than someone who doesn't.

And I'm saying that that's at best a thing. It's not a good thing, it's not something we design for or encourage. I think most people would agree that games where more people don't understand the rules are bad, and if we can make the rules so that everyone has equally good understanding of the rules, that would be a good thing.

I said that a gamer who is a better tactical thinker will have an advantage, which presumes that I was talking about a game in which being a better tactical thinker confers an advantage.

That would mean that your statement is a tautology and therefore vacuous. A gamer who has property φ will always have an advantage in games where gamers with property φ have an advantage.

In any case, that there are games where being a better tactical thinker doesn't really help. The point is that the question "should better tactical thinkers have an advantage?" has been answered by certain game designers as "no!". So when you say "Yes, in the same way that a player who is a better tactical thinker has an advantage", the same way is under certain circumstances with certain DMs and certain gaming systems.

So . . . thanks for sharing, I guess, but nothing you wrote seems to have anything to do with what I wrote.

Then try rereading it.
 

No, you're giving up a grand total of +1 to hit in order to gain +5 to diplomacy. Considering you're a fighter using a weapon, you've likely got about a +10 (ish) to hit at first level. Gaining an extra +1 or losing that extra +1 is certainly not going to result in "giving up combat effectiveness".

I mean, your character that you posted, is a warlord who deliberately CHOSE not to have diplomacy as a trained skill. He certainly had that option. So, should he be allowed to ignore his character sheet and be as convincing as the player is to the DM despite the fact that the player deliberately chose to not reflect that mechanically?

1. +9 at 1st level (+5 STR +1 Fighter talent +3 weapon prof). And yes +9 is less effective than +10, the player is giving up combat effectiveness, the core competency.

2. Yes he certainly is free to roleplay his PC as being as convincing as he can manage, although going by the background sheet the player would typically roleplay him as a bit naive around humans. But he doesn't get +5 to Diplomacy rolls, so when he does have to make a Dip roll he's less likely to succeed, making it a risky tactic. As I said, IMCs the optimal approach is to support your OOC strengths with mechanical IC support, this will enable you to reliably succeed: typically OOC strength lowers the DC, then IC resources let you reliably beat the DC.
 


What if you're playing a game with a social mechanic task resolution (3e and 4e both have one). The "charismatic" player has an 8 charisma and did not train any social skills. Yet he always seems to dominate every social interaction (the player always seems to know just what to say in any given situation), are you going to reward that?
Other than good faith (which is important, but we are talking hypotheticals here), what's to prevent the above player from completely dumping his CHA (let's assume nothing else in his build requires it) and not bothering to pump his social skills, Thereby gaining a significant mechanical advantage?
I think these two issues are related.

First, I have to say basically all my GMing experience has been with "good faith" players. Basically, I don't have players who try to "cheat" by building PCs who are mechancially weak at task X, and then trying to end-run around the action resolution mechanics for X.

But there are ways of not cheating, and playing with good faith, which don't require the charismatic or invested player, who has a PC with a low CHA/social skills, to check his/her charisma and energy at the door.

In my own case, this is mostly handled by making the situation more complex than simply "does the PC give a sincere and convincing speech".

In my sesssion yesterday, for example, the PCs had to break the news to the Baron of the city where they are staying that his niece, who was missing and whom they had been searching for, was in fact a necromancer whom they had caught red handed dealing with the undead. They brought her back to him as a prisoner. She was then sent off to take a bath, but told not to leave the building, while the PCs finished negotiating with the baron - but being a GM ever-ready to dissapoint my players, I decided that she sucked the life out of her ladies-in-waiting, teleported out the window, killed two more guards and tried to flee across the river. She ended up being killed by the drow sorcerer getting a lucky shot with his longbow. The PCs then had to report back to the baron that his niece was dead, killed in the attempt to apprehend her after she committed multiple murders (besides the ladies and the guards, she also sucked the life out of the boat pilot in an attempt to survive the PCs' attacks).

In this scenario, the general pattern of the social interactions with the baron was determined by player ability, not PC stats - the charismatic players get to set the tone for the conversations with the baron, responses to his responses, etc. But the way the baron dealt with the news that was being given to him depended upon the die rolls - the PCs with good Diplomacy were able to break news to him in a way that was gentle (relative to the circumstances) and didn't crush him, whereas those with poor skills were obviously overburdening him with bad news. And when this became apparent to the players, they adapted, letting the more comforting PCs take over the scene while the more dominant, but less skilled, pulled their PCs back a bit, and threw their energy into other things.

I also find that by making even charismatic players make social checks - so they get to play a big role in framing the fiction, but still have to roll dice to see how it pans out - you overcome the "problem" of players only ever rolling for their good skills. The dwarf fighter in my game rolls plenty of social skill checks, even though his bonus is only +7 (14th level, 11 CHA). And when he fails - as he often does - it doesn't mean "You make a fool of yourself as you try to charm but spit in their faces instead". Rather, he doesn't achieve his intent - in the above example, the Baron takes the news badly rather than accepting it, for example. (This is my understanding of Burning Wheel's "intent and task" approach to action resolution - set a skill appropriate to the task, but resolve failure having principal regard to the intent.)
 


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