High-Tech Forces vs. High-Magic Forces

[tomBitonti]

Originally Posted by tomBitonti

A big problem would be either side's actual ability to even comprehend the others capabilities.

Let's see; we're having this discussion. I think we win.

I dunno, we don't have exactly a lot of agreement. And, we have years of detailed knowledge about the fantasy forces. And, there seem to be pretty experienced armed forces members on the boards, to contribute the modern outlook.

Who's to say there aren't mages who have spent a lifetime (or two or three) pondering separate realities, such that our own is only a minor variation. An ancient archmage, in 3.5E, would easily have a 28 Int, (or 33 with wishes, if that bonus stacks, not sure about that), and might consider our modern systems a trifle compared to the awesome complexity of high magic.

I do need to go back on one of my earlier points, in that, an infiltrator could easily sabotage a base with their own explosives. The level of partitioning and redundancy in controls would make that an extensive endeavor. Not impossible, but requiring a lot of investigation and piecing together of bits of information. And then, if it took too long, the detailed answer (say, codewords) might change in the time it took to figure out.

On the other hand, a basic force of goblinoids, without a lot of magical support, should be quite easily demolished. I'd think, any visible force concentrations would be destroyed in a matter of hours, what with satellite imaging and cruise missiles, air superiority, and the like. Perhaps the limit there is the extant arsenal.

A problem, though, is that D&D hardly considers major issues for mass warfare: Command and control; logistics; morale. We have no meaningful definition of how a true combined force (mundane + magic + extraordinary creatures) would be put together, managed, or supplied. The rules pretty much avoid those sorts of issues, as most folks don't want to play a management game.

Also, a lot of creature abilities are tuned for their being one encounter foes. A devil with teleport at will and at will abilities ought to never get pinned down in a fight, if it can be helped. That is, using one encounter statted creatures in extended fights is a misuse of those creatures: They are rather overpowered as extended foes. (Meaning my devil example from before isn't really a fair example.)

TomB

 

[prosfilaes]

I dunno, we don't have exactly a lot of agreement. And, we have years of detailed knowledge about the fantasy forces. And, there seem to be pretty experienced armed forces members on the boards, to contribute the modern outlook.

Try "We're going to teleport some number of pre-21st century forces from somewhere and somewhen to somewhere now. How do you fight them?" You're not going to get a lot of agreement on that, either.

Who's to say there aren't mages who have spent a lifetime (or two or three) pondering separate realities, such that our own is only a minor variation. An ancient archmage, in 3.5E, would easily have a 28 Int,

? I get 26=18+5 level bonuses + 3 for venerable. Which, funny enough, is the same I get for an ancient engineer in the RW. The +6 headband is what's going to make the difference, and possibly +2 for the right subspecies of elf.

might consider our modern systems a trifle compared to the awesome complexity of high magic.

And never think of engineering a steam engine so people will stop bothering him for flying carpets? Personally, I'm rather sceptical of high intelligence being so useful; in real life, really intelligent people seem to lose touch with reality unless they've got a community to bounce stuff off of and to disagree with them.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A devil with teleport at will and at will abilities ought to never get pinned down in a fight, if it can be helped. That is, using one encounter statted creatures in extended fights is a misuse of those creatures: They are rather overpowered as extended foes. (Meaning my devil example from before isn't really a fair example.)

What creatures & tactics get used depend highly on the goals of the invaders.

Devotees of Maglubliet hoping to transform our world into Goblinhalla will use differing tactics and "special forces"- spell, magical creatures, etc.- from a nihilistic death cult hoping only for destruction and the triumph of entropy. The latter would have no qualms about releasing the most destructive beings and spells they know of upon this world.

 

[tomBitonti]

What creatures & tactics get used depend highly on the goals of the invaders.

Yes, but, when those tactics are based on the creature's abilities, and when those abilities are artificially placed (e.g., as a part of a narrative package for a single combat, not as an opponent free to use their ability over a long period of time), that makes for an artificial result.

That is, a lot of creatures (and spells, and abilities) just don't work if taken out of the context of small skirmishes. Put another, world building on top of abilities that don't scale beyond a skirmish is bound to break, and, I would imagine, rather quickly. (One classic case is Wall of Iron, or Fabricate. The extreme virulence of undead such as ghouls and shadows, or of were-creatures, is another.)

Heck, that is one of the complaints about the 4E POL setting (or even generally about D&D): Commoners have just about zero chance in a world with escalating CR opponents out there. High CR critters will mow down the lowbies in no time at all.

Then, to ask what will happen when a horde of goblins crosses a portal into our world, there is a lot of stuff that needs to be added to get the details to work out so that the forces are close to comparable.

TomB

 

[Hussar]

tomBitoni's point gets made quite easily with the Undead spawning powers. Even in a D&D setting, they don't make a lick of sense once you take them out of the context of small scale skirmishes. We'd have a zombipocalypse every single time if undead really worked that way.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

tomBitoni's point gets made quite easily with the Undead spawning powers. Even in a D&D setting, they don't make a lick of sense once you take them out of the context of small scale skirmishes. We'd have a zombipocalypse every single time if undead really worked that way.

Yes & no.

As written, their spawning powers ARE a bit über, perhaps.

But in their "natural" environment, there are all kinds of foes who know the signs of their presence and who work tirelessly to eradicate them. Even most commoners would be aware of the basics of undead lore, and would not hesitate to raise the alarm.

 

[Hussar]

Yes & no.

As written, their spawning powers ARE a bit über, perhaps.

But in their "natural" environment, there are all kinds of foes who know the signs of their presence and who work tirelessly to eradicate them. Even most commoners would be aware of the basics of undead lore, and would not hesitate to raise the alarm.

Perhaps? A single hit from any level draining undead will kill 90% of the population. Any 1 HD creature hit with a single negative level automatically dies. It then spawns in about 30 seconds as a full fledged monster of whatever killed it (or perhaps a wight if the spawning isn't specifiied). No saving throw, no recourse.

By the time any alarm was raised, you'd have an army of undead on your hands. Double the number of undead every minute or so - that gives the undead lots of time to find and kill another victim.

Never mind what humans might do to protect themselves, any humanoid works. A single spectre in a town would decimate the town in a single evening.

I think that's what TomBitoni is pointing at.

 

[pippenainteasy]

It would be very ugly in a direct conflict.

Take a standard 120mm tank shell, it can penetrate close to 30 inches of solid steel. That's equivalent of 230 inches of organic flesh (7.85 vs 1.01 density). Divide that by width of an average human and multiply that by 8 hit points per, and 1 tank shell is doing over 200 points of damage.

A tank can fire about once a round (6 second reload time). 2-3 tanks can take down an Ancient Dragon within 3 turns. And unless your name is Tiamat, you probably can't dish out enough damage to take out a single tank by the time you are out. And there are about 20,000 modern main battle tanks used worldwide. I don't know how many ancient dragons there are, but I doubt Faerun has more than a few dozen.

 

[Loonook]

Rise from the (thread) grave!

The whole problem with most rules for Modern weapons are that, well, they suck. Atomic bombs do quite a bit of damage... But most ballistics are actually turned away by a Protection from Arrows spell (per the D20 Modern ruleset).

Of course there is also the fact that a man trained with a bow and arrow will probably, when basic training, be quite effective with a rifle... Imagine not having to pull a string, maintain hand strength/balance/fluid draw, and be able to fire dozens of 'arrows' a second?

As we all know, Or(c/k)s love dakka .

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Derren]

It would be very ugly in a direct conflict.

Take a standard 120mm tank shell, it can penetrate close to 30 inches of solid steel. That's equivalent of 230 inches of organic flesh (7.85 vs 1.01 density). Divide that by width of an average human and multiply that by 8 hit points per, and 1 tank shell is doing over 200 points of damage.

A tank can fire about once a round (6 second reload time). 2-3 tanks can take down an Ancient Dragon within 3 turns. And unless your name is Tiamat, you probably can't dish out enough damage to take out a single tank by the time you are out. And there are about 20,000 modern main battle tanks used worldwide. I don't know how many ancient dragons there are, but I doubt Faerun has more than a few dozen.

When using the provided stats the tanks would have quite some trouble hitting the ancient dragon for damage because of its natural armor even before protective spells.

Still, in an open battle the modern army has the advantage because of size, speed and range which are all vastly superior to a magical army. And non magical troops will be mowed down by the thousands.

But in a guerilla war the magical troops would be unstoppable. Imagine the Taliban who can turn invisible, teleport, fly and control the minds of others.
And here comes the biggest weakness of the modern army, the supply chain. Without fuel, ammunition and spare parts they are useless. And magical troops can blow up fuel depots at will with invisible wizards.

The magical side also has better information gathering ability ranging from speak with dead over domination (to get prisoners to talk) to actual divinations. And when the modern army pulls out the nukes, the magical army can simply wish that the nukes detonate before they are fired (imo a rather low powered wish). Also, not even a nuke can penetrate a wall of force.
And if all else fails, the 3E shadows and wraiths can't be harmed by a modern, unmagical army. A single 3E Shadowdancer could use his shadow companion to clear out an army base.

Or one could get a wraith to spawn some others, then keep the original wraith under control with spells and through it command a unstoppable army of them. When the war is won, order them to kill each other (see OotS). But if control of the wraith is lost both factions will likely die to undead hordes.

Another disadvantage for the modern army is that their weapons can be captured and used by the enemy. And while the modern army can capture magical items, they would be more rare and mostly useless for a modern soldier.