D&D 4E The Athar in 4e

[I'm A Banana]

So, (a) there's no house rules forum, (b) the link in my sig is long out of date, and (c) I made this, and I'm kind of excited as to how it turned out.

Note that this version of The Athar is designed to be an organization or character rules element that you can stick into an ongoing D&D game just as easily as you could insert any theme, PP, ED, or background. It is presented to be used in ANY 4e D&D game, not just a Planescape game, but you shouldn't even need to tweak it if you've got a PS4e game up and running.

For those un-initiated, I'd say just check out the link and let me know what you think -- the necessary fluff is there, and isn't too long. For those who know their berks from their bashers, maybe you could let me know how this comes across.

For everyone, let me know if you like it, if it seems borked (overpowered or underpowered in some way), or if you'd make any changes. Also, let me know if you'd use it! I wish I could add it to everyone's DDI, but we'll go with this for now.

Design notes below:
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Fiction: I'm pretty excited with the way the Athar philosophy is described. It's always been a little weird to present a D&D version of "atheism-esque" beliefs, what with the literal gods and angels and all that. I took it in a little more of a "humanist" direction, which still seems consistent with the core of the Athar philosophy, while adding a bit of depth, so they weren't just a club of anti-clerics, but actually had a robust grounding. I think it added some interesting twists to "The Great Unknown," too, as an internal rather than external force, and gave the idea of a conspiracy of deities a little more plausibility.

Theme: The basic idea of the theme was to give the player a sense of playing a character who did not do as they were told. The features are a little on the weak side, but theme features often are no great shakes. Nearly all of the effects are defensive, with the player essentially saying "Nu-uh!" when the DM wallops them with something. The one "aggressive" utility gives the player a sense of control and self-determination that I hope gets across the feel of the Athar pretty well.

Paragon Path: I wanted a paragon path that could be used by a variety of characters, not just a single class or build, but that still kept the idea of what a "priest of the GU" should feel like (ie: a divine character). Giving the character Channel Divinity, and having them use it with every opportunity, helped give it that divine feel, and kept it within that "spark of divinity within all of us" flavor. The PP still favors divine characters, but any character with a good Wisdom and Charisma can get a lot of use out it. Okay, that'll STILL mostly be clerics...

Epic Destiny: Mostly, I wanted a class that was focused on removing a lot of the bonuses that the gods stated up so far had, and who was well-suited to go up against solos in general, in order to match the theme of the ED. I think the class mostly succeeds on the idea of making a Solo monster less of a beast. More importantly, I think I scored a victory on what it feels like to be a slayer-of-gods in the fiction, without making it something of a joke, or an evil villain type. A Good character could still go around slaying the evil gods, and the Good gods could then offer to give up their power -- for the Greater Good, after all. The gods who cling to their power are the ones who meet this hero's ire, but by the time a hero of this caliber exists, most of the gods are probably already doubting their usefulness to the world.
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[Quickleaf]

You deserve a pimp devil emoticon for your Athar write-up.

Because this is that cool!

That epic destiny is insane! I like how at the end you just shut down discorporating.

So, a PS question... how would you differentiate the Athar "we all have divinity spark" from the Godsmen version? Is it that the Godsmen are caught up with joining the grand facade (from an Athar perspective)?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Sweet stuff!

I only have a couple comments now:

I think your 11th level PP power is supposed to read Heresy.

Your priest PP is something I'd expect to be associated with the Godsmen, or both factions. If you have specific plans for a Godsmen PP that's differentiated from this one that's cool, but quite a few of the factions could share PPs IMO. (The Hardheads and the Mercykillers could be the same faction, for example.)

 

[I'm A Banana]

Thanks for the praise.

how would you differentiate the Athar "we all have divinity spark" from the Godsmen version? Is it that the Godsmen are caught up with joining the grand facade (from an Athar perspective)?

Your priest PP is something I'd expect to be associated with the Godsmen, or both factions.

From this perspective, the Athar and the Godsmen would certianly be kindred spirits in believing that mortals have something special in them (though they'd also be kindred spirits to, say, the Sign of One in that regard. A Signer would be eager to agree that the gods are just an illusion!). The Athar take this in an outward-directed path, looking at the people around them, and the gods that control them, and seeking to educate and liberate.

The Godsmen, on the other hand, take this in an inward-directed path, looking at how to more properly develop their own inner spark over the course of multiple lifetimes. Any broader education is kind of incidental: the idea is that we all must walk our own path to our own idea of perfect, so it's not like you can teach a guttersnipe to be a prince.

From the Athar's perspective, the Godsmen are self-centered. I like the line "becoming part of the grand facade," and I think that captures it. Godsmen are greedy and selfish, in the Athar estimation, wanting to achieve power without sharing it. The Godsmen think we all have to work hard and perfect ourselves to become gods, but that's just not true, say the Athar: we all would be as gods already, if not for the hoarding of divine power by the deities.

The Godsmen, like a lot of folks, think the Athar are way too focused on the impossible. The Godsmen also respect the deities as fully-formed individuals who have gone through the reincarnation process and perfected themselves already. They are examples to emulate, not overlords. They have every right to be our leaders, since they are the closest thing the multiverse has to a perfect entity. In the Athar's analogy of the gods as gold-hoarding dragons, the Godsmen say, well, if you want gold, you should probably learn how to get it from that dragon that's sitting on a pile of it. Clearly, that dragon knows something you don't.

I think it's a difference that'll come across well when I hit up the Believers themselves. Both factions would agree in broad terms that mortal beings are capable of great things without the gods. The Godsmen would just believe that the gods are entities to emulate, while the Athar would believe that the gods are entities to throw down.

I think your 11th level PP power is supposed to read Heresy.

DERP. Yes. Changed! Thanks!

That epic destiny is insane! I like how at the end you just shut down discorporating.

I figured, if discorporating was the gods' "I'm not dead yet!", the Inescapable trait was the Godslayer's "Oh, no, really, you ARE."

I'm a fan of how risky Seal Divinity is, too. It's a reaction, and the Godslayer probably wants to use it on the big solo in the battle, but first the god needs to hit them. Really tempts the Athar character to walk right up to Zeus and bop him on the nose, to provoke a god into trying -- DARING -- to strike them down. Sort of "You get one shot. Better make it a good one." If the Athar survives, the god is shut down significantly. If the Athar doesn't survive...well, I guess the deity showed him who's boss?

 

[the Jester]

First off, great job with the flavor! You did a better job of explaining the Athar than most official resources have. At a glance I really like it.

A lil scrutiny on the mechanics turned up a few things you might want to address, either for balance or for clarity. I can't comment on the theme, since I don't use themes in my campaign (they're 4e's best example of blatant post-PH power creep) and therefore don't have the experience with them to judge it. Here's my critique of the rest of it:

Unclaimed soul should probably be an interrupt or a free action, since you can't use an immediate reaction when you're unconscious. Likewise, I'd clarify that your ally spends a surge "as a free action" under teaching defiance.

I don't recall seeing a paragon path with stat prerequisites before.

Tears of angels is both insanely huge and barely usable, since it hits allies as well as enemies. I would change this to enemies-only, close burst 2, personally. (A close burst 5 is basically going to hit all the enemies except in rare, large battles with long-range artillery.)

Because of how awesome tears of angels is, I think the "recharge a channel divinity" clause in heresy is overpowered. I also think "recharge an encounter power" in the power is yours is overpowered as it stands. Maybe if it (the power is yours) was a daily power instead.

I don't think invincible is good enough for a 21st level epic destiny feature. Fear effects come up far less than once per session on average in my experience (although I haven't gotten a group to epic yet, so maybe it changes later). I would suggest broadening this- maybe fear and charm effects, or maybe immune to fear and charm and reduce all ongoing damage by 10 or something, I dunno.

Seal divinity requires way too much tracking imho. One save should end all those condition, but maybe have an aftereffect where you get to continue two of them or something?

 

[I'm A Banana]

First off, great job with the flavor! You did a better job of explaining the Athar than most official resources have. At a glance I really like it.

Awesome! I really wanted an Athar that could be used by anybody in any campaign, so I worked pretty hard to drill down to the core of why anyone would want to join such a potentially risky group.

Unclaimed soul should probably be an interrupt or a free action, since you can't use an immediate reaction when you're unconscious. Likewise, I'd clarify that your ally spends a surge "as a free action" under teaching defiance.

I was wondering about that. I figured the "specific trumps general" rule would keep me safe, but if immediate interrupt + free action makes it clearer, I'm gonna change it.

I don't recall seeing a paragon path with stat prerequisites before.

I did this mostly to prevent "accidental suck." Since the PP's attacks use Wisdom and Charisma, but the PP is open to any class, I didn't want anyone to get into a situation where they had a Wisdom of 8, but wanted the PP, and thus could never hit anything with the PP's attacks.

Looking at the DDI quickly, there's some PPs that use "highest ability modifier," so I think I'll just change the PP's attacks to that.

Tears of angels is both insanely huge and barely usable, since it hits allies as well as enemies. I would change this to enemies-only, close burst 2, personally. (A close burst 5 is basically going to hit all the enemies except in rare, large battles with long-range artillery.)

Because of how awesome tears of angels is, I think the "recharge a channel divinity" clause in heresy is overpowered. I also think "recharge an encounter power" in the power is yours is overpowered as it stands. Maybe if it (the power is yours) was a daily power instead.

Yeah, tears of angels was originally something like turn undead, but immortal-specific. I dropped the "only hits immortals" text to make it more versatile, but then didn't bother changing anything else.

Is it still too powerful for heresy to have its effects with tears of angels toned down?

As for the power is yours, yeah, a Daily sounds like a good solution to me. Maybe I can take out that futzy "of 11th level or lower" verbiage, too, to keep the power viable at higher levels, if it's a daily.

I don't think invincible is good enough for a 21st level epic destiny feature. Fear effects come up far less than once per session on average in my experience (although I haven't gotten a group to epic yet, so maybe it changes later). I would suggest broadening this- maybe fear and charm effects, or maybe immune to fear and charm and reduce all ongoing damage by 10 or something, I dunno.

Okay, it's now immunity to fear and charm, AND they grant this immunity to allies adjacent to them.

Seal divinity requires way too much tracking imho. One save should end all those condition, but maybe have an aftereffect where you get to continue two of them or something?

I can see that. I now have it where you need two saves to overcome it. A lot of that is because Solos often make saves about a million times in a turn, so I want it to be something that sticks around for a while. Since gods are usually solos, fightin' solos should be what the Godslayer does best! Combined with Inevitable, though, two saves at a -5 penalty, and even if they save it still lasts until the Godslayer goes again, sounds like they'll be suffering under it for quite a while, without having to track each individual bullet point.

 

[the Jester]

Yeah, tears of angels was originally something like turn undead, but immortal-specific. I dropped the "only hits immortals" text to make it more versatile, but then didn't bother changing anything else.

Is it still too powerful for heresy to have its effects with tears of angels toned down?

I don't think so.

As for the power is yours, yeah, a Daily sounds like a good solution to me. Maybe I can take out that futzy "of 11th level or lower" verbiage, too, to keep the power viable at higher levels, if it's a daily.

I overlooked that- yes, good idea.

I really like this, even having never played/run Planescape per se.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I really like this, even having never played/run Planescape per se.

I am filled with a writer's joy.

 

[Balesir]

I like this! I have long been a fan of Planescape, and this is a nice take on the Athar. Just a few small (hopefully helpful) comments/questions:

- Would a feat for "Athar membership" be a good addition? The PP and ED both require "Athas membership", but IIRC themes and Backgrounds are only really choices at level 1. It seems a shame not to have the possibility to come accross the Athar and align yourself to them in play.

- For Unclaimed Soul and Teaching Defiance I'm not sure that Immediate Reaction with the wording "reduced to 0 hit points" works quite right. How about "take(s) damage that would reduce you/them to 0 hit points or less"?

- Similarly with Master of Your Own Fate, I think it needs to be an Immediate Interrupt (otherwise any fail/miss condition happens before you get to hit, which could be either very disadvantageous if, for example, the failure means a Skill Challenge is lost, or rather overpowered if, for example, it gave a "Miss" effect plus a "Hit").

- Should the "remove an encounter or recharge power" rider on Heresy work only on Divine powers or those used by Immortals? I'm not sure it should, but I ask because the fluff and the power don't seem to match, and I think as a blanket power it might (still) be a tad strong? Not sure.

Overall, though - nice, and captures the "essence" of the Athar well.

Edit: looks like I spoke too late with some of this, using a version before your latest update!