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Legends and Lore - Nod To Realism

Why did the designers of 3.x decide that a fireball that can melt metal will not set the characters on fire? Isn't that just as unrealistic?

I'm confused, how is this unrealistic? the burst of fire is hot enough and brief enough to melt metal and burn flesh without setting it on fire. Even with a save a character (barring a special ability, spell, etc. that negates it) takes damage from a fireball.
 

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I'm confused, how is this unrealistic? the burst of fire is hot enough and brief enough to melt metal and burn flesh without setting it on fire. Even with a save a character (barring a special ability, spell, etc. that negates it) takes damage from a fireball.
Well, apparently steel melts at ~1370 degrees C (2500°F) so realisticallly (without the quotes, intentionally), anything that melts steel will incinerate flesh. I don't think a fireball was actively intended by the designers to melt metal armor (if it does, it's the unintentional by-product of non-hardcore or "pretend" simulation). Now dragon fire does apparently burn hotter than regular fire (well, depending on the author's take), in which case the only "realistic" way to avoid turning to slag and cinder is to dodge or take cover from dragon fire. How deep down the rabbit hole of "realism" is a problem with the simulationist approach. What this has to do with 4E fireballs, I'm not entirely sure. If 5E does nod to realism, I think Monte is hinting at rules that empower the group to deal with these sorts of questions or ignore them as desired.
 

By that rationale, AD&D and 3.x already exist too, so there is no real reason to revisit either of them, and yet, that is what many folks want to see. Just as many do not, I'm sure.

Your comparison to the fashion industry is accurate in at least that way. Do we really need to revisit the 60s, 70, and 80s ad nauseam?

I know I'm not looking for another 3e or 3.5 remake from WOTC. I'm looking for 5e to a game which isn't 4e, but isn't 3e either. I want it to be the next step, hopefully its one that steps toward something more "realistic" and "simulationist" and less "gamist".

Ill conjure others to see if they feel as I do or if they want a "revisit of 3.x".

[MENTION=58416]Johnny3D3D[/MENTION], [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION], [MENTION=21807]pauljathome[/MENTION], [MENTION=6685059]LurkAway[/MENTION], [MENTION=59506]El Mahdi[/MENTION], [MENTION=22701]Darren[/MENTION]
What do you guys think?
 

I'm confused, how is this unrealistic? the burst of fire is hot enough and brief enough to melt metal and burn flesh without setting it on fire. Even with a save a character (barring a special ability, spell, etc. that negates it) takes damage from a fireball.

Interesting, so to you it's not unrealistic. Gold that has a melting point of 1947.52 °F will melt when a fireball ignites in a room for less than a second, but a creature's hair which starts to burn at about 451 °F will not even be affected when it fails its save. And a creature can't catch on fire when it fails a save.

Yeah, they take damage. There is no dispute there. In 3.x creatures inside the burst of a fireball take damage. It also melts gold. But it doesn't and cannot set the creature on fire, because???? That would be unrealistic?

See, when you start using "realism" as the measure of what happens you end up with these weird situations. The right answer to the above "WHY" is that the designers decided that damage was well enough for design work, and didn't add anything else in. Realism had absolutely nothing to do with their decision. The bounds of the effect that they wanted to provide was the only consideration in their design. They're not trying to simulate anything realistic. They are giving you a particular self-contained effect. That is the only "why" for why certain things, like gold, melt but the creature does not catch on fire.

So when questions of "why" come up about 4e, I refer to the same situation. The intent of the designers is not to inject realism, it is to design rules that provide the specific desired effect. In the case of fireball, an area of effect spell that does fire damage to creatures and, if desired by the DM and players, objects. Realism, verisimilitude, plausibility, whatever you want to call it has nothing to do with it, and never has in any edition of the game.
 
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I know I'm not looking for another 3e or 3.5 remake from WOTC. I'm looking for 5e to a game which isn't 4e, but isn't 3e either. I want it to be the next step, hopefully its one that steps toward something more "realistic" and "simulationist" and less "gamist".

Ill conjure others to see if they feel as I do or if they want a "revisit of 3.x".

@Johnny3D3D , @Imaro , @pauljathome , @LurkAway , @El Mahdi , @Darren
What do you guys think?

I honestly want something less gamist than 4e (whether that's a truely narativist game or a simulationist bent game doesn't really matter to me that much at this point).

Again, I think most of the dislike I have for 4e centers around the fact that, IMO, it's blatantly gamist and in the course of playing and running the game this causes all kinds of things to jump out at me and my players as being designed purely for the game part of 4e. Now whether you want to call this phenomenon immersion breakage, un-realism, or whatever catchy phrase is the new way of refering to it, it happens in 4e for me much more than in previous editions that I have played and I don't particularly care for it.

Furthermore, I honestly think, from recent posts, articles, blogs, etc. that even many of 4e's designers and developers are aware of it or at least understand what it is many are turned off by in 4e's design... contrary to what most fans of 4e claim.
 
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In art, it is hard to argue that the use of perspective didn't make art "better".
When Arneson had players take individual heroes off of the battlefield and control them in a dungeon, firsthand, that was a paradigm shifter like perspective. 4E's gamist high level abstractions and dragonborn-and-eladrin WoW-ish implied setting, let alone stuff like exception based design, skill challenges and healing surges are IMO nothing nearly so important or innovative, or useful in a D&D RPG save for a subsection of it's audience - just a spin in the game design fashion spin cycle that abandons or compromises other arguably important things like suspension of disbelief, genre fidelity and the ability to use the game for generic fantasy worldbuilding. Or run a campaign of any significant scope for that matter, when combat takes so long compared to say, BECM.
 


[MENTION=58416]Johnny3D3D[/MENTION], [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION], [MENTION=21807]pauljathome[/MENTION], [MENTION=6685059]LurkAway[/MENTION], [MENTION=59506]El Mahdi[/MENTION], [MENTION=22701]Darren[/MENTION]
What do you guys think?

I think that we can talk all day long but non of it will matter to WotC.
That is mostly because WotC has completely different priorities for the next edition than we do as they have to earn money with it.

It certainly won't be something like 3E. After having a rather strong competition with pathfinder, WotC will try to keep the fans they have with 4E more than they try to win some pathfinder players back.

PS: Derren
 

I think that we can talk all day long but non of it will matter to WotC.
That is mostly because WotC has completely different priorities for the next edition than we do as they have to earn money with it.

It certainly won't be something like 3E. After having a rather strong competition with pathfinder, WotC will try to keep the fans they have with 4E more than they try to win some pathfinder players back.

PS: Derren

Sorry, Derren.

The reason I summoned was because Nemesis Destiny seemed intent that we wanted 3.x back and that I for one didn't.
I don't want to go backward, but going forward it would be nice to have something different from 4e's "gamist" philosophy.
 

ard it would be nice to have something different from 4e's "gamist" philosophy.

Not having a "gamist" edition would be nice (in my eyes).
But I am not the target group of WotC (any more) so in the end what I want doesn't matter.
Personally I think it will stay gamist.

Reasoning:
- I see the D&D boardgames as testing ground for 5E
- WotC can't afford another split which would happen if they changed the core framework again (its easier to loose players than to regain players. And everyone who is dissatisfied with gamist D&D now plays something else already)
- A gamist framework allows them to sell lots of supplements
- A strategy game is "less geeky" and its easier to attract players with it.
 
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