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Role Playing Intelligence

kitcik

Adventurer
There is nothing more dangerous to a monster than a clever player.

Though sometimes PCs can be thicker than mud.

These quotes reminded me of an interesting question I've been meaning to pose - how do you have your players role-play intelligence?

I mean, if the player is really strong (or weak), their character can only act within the confines of their Str attribute.

What about intelligance?

Do you allow a character with an 8 intelligence to do brilliant things because their player is brilliant? If not, how do you stop it?

Conversely, if your moron friend is playing an 18 Int wizard, do you grant Int rolls for them to realize things that the player has not?

EDIT: Also, as a player how do you handle this?
 

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It's a group game. Sometimes the smart player comes up with a great idea his character wouldn't think of. But the wizard character would so in game that is who thinks up the idea. I don't punish the players for being smart. Though I will sometimes come up with two puzzles one for the Engineer genius and another simpler one for the rest of the group. :D
 

How do you have your players role-play intelligence?

I mean, if the player is really strong (or weak), their character can only act within the confines of their Str attribute.

What about intelligance?

Do you allow a character with an 8 intelligence to do brilliant things because their player is brilliant? If not, how do you stop it?

Conversely, if your moron friend is playing an 18 Int wizard, do you grant Int rolls for them to realize things that the player has not?

EDIT: Also, as a player how do you handle this?

I'd be laissez-faire.

Topic: Player intelligence vs. character intelligence

Let me preface by saying that I have little experience, having only played and DMed less than five times, but I theorize often.

How that I would have my players role-play intelligence is that I would let the game role-play it for them and let them roleplay it as much as they want. Similar to physical performance, there are mental performance checks in-game and they are there precisely to determine character smartness and how well it does for them. I would allow a character with 8 INT to do brilliant things because their player is brilliant, because eight is two points below average. Brilliant plans are not exclusive to the above average in intelligence; they are just consistent and correlative to those with above average of our conception of intelligence. Our conception of intelligence is vague: "Numerous definitions of and hypotheses about intelligence have been proposed since before the twentieth century, with no consensus reached by scholars." I'd let the player adjudicate themself if they decide that what they would otherwise do is not possible by their conception of their character; The player can not do whatever they do want not to do.

If I believed that a plan was too smart for their character to formulate, I'd work with them to have that be their plan anyway by having an NPC suggest the plan. This garners the best of both worlds, roleplaying appropriately low intelligence, but benefiting from one's own knowledge. If I believed that a plan was too dumb for their character to formulate, I'd give them subtle hints as to a better plan and/or I'd retcon so that they have a better plan. For example,
Player: "I lockpick."
DM: "You notice that the padlock is made of iron. Surely, easier to be broken than picked with your mace which is made of stronger stuff." Granted, such wording is condescendant. A check (e.g., Spot) can be pretended to be rolled, to mislead that their PC figured it based on their own wits.

I've often heard people recount in pain their group's Barbarian who had sub-10 INT , but roleplayed dumber because they believed otherwise. By the numbers, two to three is what marks the threshold to minimal human sentience. Three = full lingual capability. Parrots and great apes are on the brink of human baby talk intelligence. The pack-hunt tactic of flanking can be considered smart, but the animals formulating the tactic have sub INT 3. Yet, Steve the Half-Orc Barbarian with INT 8 will still act stupid enough to abandon flanking tactics.

3 INT, minimum WIS, and formulating ingenious master-plans? I'm going to draw the line at 3 INT: once past and above 2 INT, you can formulate any plan. What of INT 3 humans? They could formulate the plans, but perhaps they can't convey them well. There are people with cerebral palsy that only have impaired motor functions, but they can claim to not be mentally handicapped. If that's the case, despite being able to formulate master-plans, they could still be considered mentally handicapped. There's more than one part to the brain for the intelligence score to affect. To keep things simple, there's the 3 INT milestone and the rest is up to the player. Anyone can recall a time when they decide to abandon flanking tactics despite having average intelligence.

Keep in mind, an 18 ability score is considered tremendous. Characters regularly possess ridiculous ability scores and that's hard to roleplay. Generalizing the issue:
"How do I do stuff that I can't actually do?"
"The game establishes mechanics for actions. For example, although you may not be able to wield a greatsword in real life, you can play a Half-Orc Barbarian with 18 STR and the game calculates you swinging a greatsword to attack something by having you roll a d20, adding attack modifiers, then rolling for damage, adding damage modifiers.
Another example: Although you may not be able to bluff to your mom in real life, you can play a Gray Elf Rogue with 18 INT and the game calculates you telling a lie to deceive someone by having you roll a d20, adding skill modifiers, then having the victim roll for Sense Motive, adding their own skill modifiers.
In this way, you can do what you normally can't, both in a physical sense and a mental sense."






Tackling the issue anew:
A player can metagame to have their character know everything about their opponents? No. I meant that I'd be laissez faire with roleplaying intelligence which is different than knowledge.

Player intelligence vs. character intelligence is believed to require adjudication because of the feeling of cheating when thinking smarter than one believes that the character thinks. One must establish whether or not it is cheating and wherefore the feeling originates. The feeling originates from preconceived notions of intelligence levels. Intelligence levels ability score numbers are examined:

Is setting fire to an enemy camp a tactic that an INT 3 Half-Orc Barbarian could come up with?
Just what separates INT 0, INT 1 (being higher than 0), INT 2 (being lower than 3), and INT 3 (at which "a creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least")?
Can an animal come up with the idea of setting fire to an enemy camp? No.
Can an animal learn to set fire to an enemy camp? Yes.
Can an animal learn that setting fire to an enemy camp is good? No.
Can a creature of humanlike intelligence come up with the idea of setting fire to an enemy camp? Yes. There is no plan a creature of humanlike intelligence cannot conceive. Plan sophistication vs. hammer-time can be taken up as an issue in turn-based combat and the metagame itself as a different topic. Idiot savants are a perfect example of paradoxes to that issue, emphasizing that intelligence is multifaceted yet woefully determined by a single ability score.
 
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I played a stereotypical "Big Dumb Fighter" in a 4e game, I had a schtick for him whenever the group needed an idea or a plan. I'd raise my hand at the table and, in a slightly thick "dummy" voice, go "Ooooh Ooooh, I know, I know. I have an idea!". Then, when called on, play a lost look and say in a small voice, "Never mind. It's gone." </anecdote mode>

I tend to give RP bonuses for exceptional play. So if the 8 Int character keeps acting like the 16 Int player, it will be noted, pointed out, and he'll lose out on that Exp.

Over all, you have to go with the Rp on it, because there's really no way to tell someone that they can't use an idea they have. So reward the good RP, particularly when it results in the PC's using a less than optimal plan in order to stay in character.

It's actually pretty common for player characters to play smarter than their players are though. The player has several minutes to think of something that the PC has only seconds to deal with.

The hope is that they'll actually make good use of that time.
 

Figured I should weigh in since I'm partially to blame....

Should the dumb character be able to do things his smart player comes up with? Well, the few times I've had that scenario in my games usually its the player saying "No, I'd never have come up with that." Though I've always been of the opinion that a "dumb" character could stumble upon or come up with a simple solution to a problem. So if it's roleplayed well, then I'd allow it. With good roleplaying, anything should be possible.

If the character has super-human level intellect, then giving the PCs a simple int or wisdom check to remember things is a common thing I do. Plus, for the characters it may have only been one or two days while for the player its been two weeks since we've last met!

"Give me a wisdom check. Okay, you remember that the Prince was looking for someone to help him with a problem."

Something as simple as that allows the game to keep moving if the players are blocking on what to do next.

The problem I'm running into my current game is meta-gaming players. "Oh it's a <insert monster> it has <insert abilities here>!"

Now with all that being said, I am currently playing an 8 int barbarian. And yes, I do play him MUCH dumber than he'd probably be. I do that because 1) The majority of the group enjoys it and 2) He has reason to act that way from his past interactions with people.

Finally, you may consider reading this:
Reality Refracted: Discussion: Do We Need Mental Attributes?
 

I've seen a high INT roleplayed a few different ways, and it depends on the other mental stats.

Booksmart- This is the "Knowledge" skill style player, the typical wizard. Knows 'About" things, but not necessarily clever, or social. This is a High INT, Low WIS, low CHA.
Strategist- This is cleverness, the ability to put into action whatever it is you know, be it a lot or a little. This is High INT, High WIS.
Street Smart- This is more of a social intelligence, making descisions based upon the effects and reactions of others. this is High INT, High CHA.

I played a CN Gnome Wizard who was plenty smart, but selfish and snarky. his Charisma score was dismal, and he'd occasionally snub his allies which was unwise. But he knew stuff.

I played a NN Chameleon who was Clever, and was also a secret black market smuggler. He had all his mental stats really solid, but he was actually a con artist and used other party members for his own gain.

With all of that said, I encourage my players to work together as a team and discuss everything before acting. They do so most of the time. Therefore it's often the combined intelligence of all the players/characters that factors in and so I don't really reward/penalize/comment on individual RPing of mental stats.

And besides (I can say this because none of my players visit this forum), not all of my players are very bright IRL. I love um, but not all bright.
 

My BDF did come up with ideas and plans, but I limited them to the "Notice the Obvious" category, figuring a simple mind like his would tend to think in direct and simple ways.
 

It is easy to play dumber than your actual intelligence; it is very difficult to play smarter than your actual intelligence.

In my games, Intelligence modifies the mechanical areas of the game that the rules state it modifies (such as the amount of skills a character receives). Tactics, critical thinking, and puzzle solving are role-played however the player chooses to role-play them. I do not regulate it. If the 8 Int fighter solves all the puzzles while the 18 Int wizard twiddles their thumbs, well, so be it. Though, since we are all friends -- and we are all skilled in different areas -- we tend to self-regulate so that the spotlight tends to shine fairly on each characters' contributions.
 
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All interesting points of view - thanks!

While it may be easier for the motivated (presumably by a desire for RP) player to play dumber than he/she actually is than smarter (impossible?), it is probably easier for the DM the other way around. You can give people hints & checks to make them smarter, but there's not much you can do to make them dumber (besides rewards for good RP as [MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION] mentioned).

As a player, it is probably most difficult to RP average intelligence (given that role players tend to have above average intelligence) since it is hard to determine which ideas your character is too smart or too dumb for. Then I find you have to fall back on a version of "the party thought of it" type RP.
 

For competent players; Most characters that don't use intelligence aren't able to do many tactically intelligent options. Wisdom can be just easily used for doing creatively brilliant things that make DMs raise the eyebrow. If they can do smart things, they probably use Int or Wis. You don't really much Int for the few Fighter options that use it, otherwise, you don't need to worry about knowing how to do more than hitting things, since it's mechanically all they really do.

For incompetent players; You should always make sure your players get the rules basics.

Realistically, the Intelligence score of high level wizards implies they should already be crafty enough to figure out all these dirty tricks on their own without the 4th wall's intervention.
 

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