D&D 3E/3.5 5E solve me this: 3Es and 4Es biggest problem

Windjammer

Adventurer
Earlier today I came across an amazingly insightful comment on Monte Cook's latest column. I'll reproduce it in full:

E Decker at RPG Geek said:
You know, I find the whole article rather self-contradictory. On the one hand, you have this claim [by Monte Cook]:

"At its heart, D&D isn't about rules. It's about participating in an exciting fantasy adventure. The rules are just the means to enable that to happen."

And then, there's all the talk about players choosing which options they want to use. But if the adventure's the thing, and the rules just a system of enabling that adventure, then that choice shouldn't be necessary in the first place.

And you know, once upon a time, it wasn't. Nobody ever turned a game down because the DM was running Basic rather than Advanced, or Rolemaster rather than D&D. There was never any big discussion when somebody broke out the lead figures, nor when somebody didn't. It was the adventure that counted, after all.

And for crying out loud, nobody ever dreamed of using rules from a book that the DM didn't own, as has been mentioned in this thread. My goodness.

But then somebody thought it would be a great idea to put a bunch of rulebooks into the hands of the players in order to make some serious cash, and here we are today. Fragmentation. A ridiculous sense of player entitlement that includes dictating rules to the guy running your adventure for you. Endless discussions of mechanics, and precious little talk about those adventures that Cook claims really matter.

I agree with this, because this week as I'm starting up a new 4E campaign the usual stuff ensues. Endless bickering over which stuff to declare legit, what's off bounds, what doesn't fit this time, and so on.

As a GM of 20 years experience I continue to be amazed by players who think they can predict what a campaign is going to be about, or even worse, what it's ought to be about. That the things bickered about end up being trivial bonuses to attacks and skills goes without saying. There's never any inherent interest in the character beyond his abilities.

It's not just the grand level publishing strategy that's the problem, and which this poster alludes to. It's the very specific handling of content that WotC deliberately failed to deliver in 4 sub-editions now.

In 3rd edition we had the polymorph debacle. Over night, any and every stat block in any monster book ever published became a player asset. This wasn't simply a bane for GMs, it was a bane for D&D authors: they could no longer write up crazy monsters which GMs could use however they wanted to see fit, but now had to carefully balance GM material against player (ab)use.

Even the most die-hard fan of 3rd edition, and certainly the hardest critics of that edition, will agree that the rules and errata mess the polymorph subsystem generated was one of the worst failings of that game.

And it wasn't a wailing because it produced over powered characters, or because (which is also true) the rules text never attained a level of clarity that ended the bickering on the table. No, the reason why this was such an immense failure was because it failed to separate DM material from player material.

And then 4E came along, and blew this error to the worst of all proportions. It dreamt up a Character Builder into which every rules element ever published for the system would be pooled together, and all within a second's reach of the player.

'But hold on,' you might say (because you are a reasonable, patient person), 'why should players not exercise discretion?'.

Indeed, why not? Easy. Because the Character Builder references the source of each mechanical element but not its purpose.

Examples from this week:

Player: why is this alchemical component off limits? It appeared in Dungeon magazine, no less!
DM: Because, if you had read the actual article it appeared in, you'd know that it explicitly said that these alchemical experiments are solely known to an NPC, and for the sole use of the DM.


Or again,

Player: why is this power off limits?
DM: Because we're playing in Eberron, and that power appears in an article called 'Artificers of the Realms'?


And so on and so on and so on and so on for a thousand new items. The magic item rarity system, however staggeringly incompetent one may find its execution (I do), managed to address a real issue: WotC authors could no longer write up mysterious magic items, because whoops-de-doo they'd end up in the player's finger tips before GMs even had a chance to make room for them in their campaigns. Here, read this article on that very issue, by a WotC staffer no less, and ask yourself: how does this differ from 3.x polymorph in the slightest? Why would a company want to repeat this mistake?

I'm curious. Because, WotC, whatever you do next, please end this mess. End the endless bickering over what rules are used at which table. Don't dial this complexity meter and 'players can choose their own customization' meter to 11 again. Don't repeat that mistake again.

What we want is a stable, errata- and 'update'-free, rules platform on which rotating GMs can run stable campaigns. Make the campaign the central rules element in 5E, not the PC. Give us an edition where D&D is about campaigns which PCs can play in - and end this nonsense of special snowflake PCs which DMs have to design campaigns around.
 
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innerdude

Legend
I wholeheartedly agree with you on making the campaign the central rules element. I firmly believe that even the most ardent char-op player gets more excited about playing when the fictional "place" their character inhabits has real, dramatic, interesting places, people, and mysteries to explore.

That said, I think you have to be careful not to dampen the "no special snowflake" idea too much. As a player, I enjoy having unique mechanics that reflect the aims of my character concept, both in play and internally.

Has it gone too far in 3e and 4e? Yeah, I think it has, but part of the problem too isn't just the "special snowflakey-ness" of feats, powers, and skills---it's that they make adjudication and NPC creation very messy and time-consuming. If WotC could keep special snowflakes, but make it easy to streamline the the results, they'd be on to something.
 

Walking Dad

First Post
...

Player: why is this alchemical component off limits? It appeared in Dungeon magazine, no less!
DM: Because, if you had read the actual article it appeared in, you'd know that it explicitly said that these alchemical experiments are solely known to an NPC, and for the sole use of the DM.


Or again,

Player: why is this power off limits?
DM: Because we're playing in Eberron, and that power appears in an article called 'Artificers of the Realms'?


...
Your points?

Please tell me which character builder stuff is really NPC (who are not created like PCs) only. I will not believe you until you can give me the example.

And the the second example: Bad DM, disallowing a power possibly perfect for the characters background and style solely on the article it appeared in.

If a DM has access to a rule or think, I want (as a player) to be able to ask him/her to get it. It is this simple. And if he says no, I will usually accept it, or walk away if all the character concept I want to play becomes impossible to do.

And BTW, the rules are part of my enjoyment of a game. This is why there are countless variants of the classical boardgames: Because the rules make things different.
RPG can be more than make-believe. It is RP plus G.
 

Aeolius

Adventurer
Bad DM, disallowing a power possibly perfect for the characters background and style solely on the article it appeared in.

I would say just the opposite. It appears the DM must treat potential players like children.

"In this Harry Potter game you may not use your Star Wars action figures"

is really no different than:

"In this game, only supplements pertaining to the World of Greyhawk will be allowed. Also, inclusion of outside materials will be at the DM's discretion. Typically, if I do not own a supplement I do not allow it's use. This game will be roleplay-heavy and combat-light. Please tailor your characters accordingly."
 

Rechan

Adventurer
As long as there is player material beyond one book, there will always be DMs saying "now I have to disallow stuff". Hell, there are DMs who say no to core stuff if it differs from the campaign they are running (see: the monk debate, Dark Sun and its divine classes). And there will always be players who want to play the stuff the DM doesn't like. Regardless of where the content is located.

Honestly, I've always felt that 3rd party products are useless for player content because no DM I've ever met would allow anything from anything non-WotC.

God forbid a DM look at the actual rule and decide if it's OP or not, rather than say "Ew, it's touching other content I don't like because it's packaged in that article/book, it's tainted".

Hell, I feel fine with banning elves/dwarves/halflings/gnomes (and rules relating to them) if it doesn't fit my campaign.
 
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Ulrick

First Post
I need to spread XP around before I give windjammer more.


I would love to go back to the days when character building was not as complex as it is now. Back then players looked up from their character sheets more and didn't have to flip through rulesbooks as often. More options don't necessarily make a better game. In my experience, it makes a slower game (especially in 3.5e at higher levels). And I, as DM, I got really tired of having to keep track of all those options.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Since the early '80s (you know, since we've had a choice) I turned down games and certainly had others turn down games I offered because they weren't the game system of choice.

In the early '80s I had players showing with alternate rules for me to refuse -- variant spell systems featuring poorly thought out spell point systems, critical hit charts, and things borrowed from other game systems they thought woulod be wonderful additions to the game I was running. I certainly saw a whole bunch of games adopt such things at the players' request.

In short, I do not know of this period of gentle innocence hinted at by the OP.
 

TheAuldGrump

First Post
I go with a line item veto - after I have access to the supplement in question. The book would have to be pretty awful for me to ban the whole thing, but I do want to see what you are trying to slip past me first.

Oozemasters in the Iron Kingdoms? Sorry. Samurai in the Reformation Germanies? Ummm, no. A Wizard/Detective in Eberron? Sure, sounds great.

The Auld Grump
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Moved to new Horizons - this wasn't a General topic

What we want is a stable, errata- and 'update'-free, rules platform

Errata and update free? So, you'd prefer a set of rules in which design errors are never corrected, and you never get new rules content beyond the original books?
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Moved to new Horizons - this wasn't a General topic



Errata and update free? So, you'd prefer a set of rules in which design errors are never corrected, and you never get new rules content beyond the original books?

In many ways, I too prefer to run 'dead' or 'closed' systems. It lets me set up the world to support the game as presented without the worry that sudden changes to the ruleset will send ripples through the campaign.

It also lets the players understand their choices and make informed decisions without fear of the ruleset undermining them. This became especially important in 3.X as some choices to enter prestige classes were, to put it delicately, unintuitive.
 

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