Converting Greyhawk monsters

[Shade]

In other words, if you insist on making them Tiny, so they can take weapon damage, I'll insist on giving the swarm 277HD to fit the original mechanic better. It just really seems like the Fine/Diminutive swarm rules make way more sense for these in 3.5. It's clearly what the original design was aiming for.

It would definitely look better than a bunch of 2-foot diameter crabs rolling over each over in a 10-foot square.

 

[Cleon]

My point is that the difference between vulnerability to area attacks and vulnerability to weapons is greater for Diminutive/Fine swarms. And the size of the spiders is clearly smaller than Tiny; making them larger seems like a clear contradiction to me. And it would be totally useless to attack them individually, as there are "at least 500" of them.

I like 2 or 3 HD for them, make them pretty basic.

Are we dropping the anomalous immunity to fire?

It's not totally useless, since you can attack them individually. It'll just take a mighty long time to work your way through them.

Besides, there's no consistency in AD&D's treatment of swarms. For example, the AD&D Insect Swarm can be attacked by weapons, since any attack kills 1d20 insects per hit point damage. I could use similar logic to yours to argue these insects are Tiny, since they take damage en-masse from weapons, but they're described as being 1 or 2 inches long.

If we can't agree we could always make a Fine-sized Crab Swarm and a Diminutive-sized Crab Swarm and please both of us!

 

[Shade]

If we can't agree we could always make a Fine-sized Crab Swarm and a Diminutive-sized Crab Swarm and please both of us!

Let's do that. Please all of the people some of the time.

 

[freyar]

If you mean one Fine and one Tiny, that sounds fine.

How about that immunity to fire?

 

[Cleon]

If you mean one Fine and one Tiny, that sounds fine.

How about that immunity to fire?

I believe that was specific to the Giant Crab(s) of White Plume Mountain, so it wasn't boiled alive by the geyzer waters it (they) lived next to.

I'm fine dropping it for a "standard" Crab Swarm. We can always add a subentry for "In Greyhawk" that mentions the fire-immune version.

 

[Shade]

I believe that was specific to the Giant Crab(s) of White Plume Mountain, so it wasn't boiled alive by the geyzer waters it (they) lived next to.

I'm fine dropping it for a "standard" Crab Swarm. We can always add a subentry for "In Greyhawk" that mentions the fire-immune version.

That seems the best approach.

 

[Cleon]

That seems the best approach.

OK, so we're back to a Fine and Diminutive Swarm of Monstrous Crabs.

I believe I'll start a Working Draft...

 

[Cleon]

Crab Swarm Working Draft

Monstrous Crab, Tiny
Tiny Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: ½d8 (2 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-6
Attack: Claw +2 melee (1d3-2)
Full Attack: 2 claws +2 melee (1d3-2)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d3-2, improved grab
Special Qualities: Amphibious, low-light vision, scent, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +0, Will +0
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 11, Con 10, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +12, Spot +4
Feats: Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Temperate aquatic
Organization: Colony (8–16)
Challenge Rating: 1/4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Monstrous Crab, Diminutive
Diminutive Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: ¼d8 (1 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+4 size, +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-11
Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d2-3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d2-3)
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d2-3, improved grab
Special Qualities: Amphibious, low-light vision, scent, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +0, Will +0
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 11, Con 10, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +16, Spot +4
Feats: Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Temperate aquatic
Organization: Colony (8–16)
Challenge Rating: 1/6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Monstrous Crab Swarm, Tiny
Tiny Vermin (Aquatic, Swarm)
Hit Dice: 4d8 (18 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/—
Attack: Swarm (2d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (2d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Clinging swarm, distraction
Special Qualities: Amphibious, half damage from slashing and piercing, low-light vision, scent, swarm traits, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 11, Con 10, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +12, Spot +4
Feats: Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Temperate aquatic
Organization: Solitary, scrabble (2-4 swarms), or horde (5-8 swarms)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Monstrous Crab Swarm, Diminutive
Diminutive Vermin (Aquatic, Swarm)
Hit Dice: 7d8 (31 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+4 size, +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/—
Attack: Swarm (2d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (2d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Clinging swarm, distraction
Special Qualities: Amphibious, immune to weapon damage, low-light vision, scent, swarm traits, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +2
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 11, Con 10, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +12, Spot +4
Feats: Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Temperate aquatic
Organization: Solitary, scrabble (2-4 swarms), or horde (5-8 swarms)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

A scuttling mass of saucer-sized crabs that clamber over each other in their eagerness to feed.

The hundreds of crabs that make up a crab swarm may be full grown animals or the tiny young of larger monstrous crabs, which have congregated into swarms after spawning. They are voracious scavengers that will eat anything, living or dead, they come across.

COMBAT

A giant crab swarm moves over anything that smells like food, then attacks until either the swarm is dispersed or there's nothing left of its opponents besides inedible scraps.

Clinging Swarm (Ex): Any living creature that takes damage from a crab swarm's swarm attack must succeed at a Reflex save (DC 13 for Diminutive crab swarms, DC 12 for Tiny) or 1d4 crabs from the swarm automatically grapple the creature, dealing damage as usual. Treat these as individual monstrous crabs, which must be killed or grappled separately. The Reflex save DC is Constitution-based.

Distraction (Ex): Any living creature that begins its turn with a crab swarm in its space must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 13 for Diminutive crab swarms, DC 12 for Tiny) or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Skills: A monstrous crab has a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks.

 

[freyar]

Do we really need the individual Diminutive crab? Though I admit it has a nice novelty value.

I think the Diminutive version swarm should probably just be a few HD. Like 2 or 3. Tiny should probably be about twice as much.

 

[Shade]

Do we really need the individual Diminutive crab? Though I admit it has a nice novelty value.

No, but Cleon can't help himself...and it might make a nice familiar.