D&D General Greyhawk: Snarf's Guide to Ready-Made Campaign Themes!

[grodog]

Sadly, I don't see this statement as true given what they published in Ghosts of Saltmarch. And that book heavily coloured my opinion about Greyhawk (negatively, if I have to clarify). Add to that all the Gygax's stuff, and that's why I've purposefully avoided Greyhawk...

Anyways, thanks for sharing your insights. I'm still waiting to see if this new is 5e take changes my opinion about the setting.

I’m definitely curious to hear more about your thoughts, now that the DMG content is out there, and also what specifically about Greyhawk turns you off—whether the new stuff, Gygax’s stuff, etc.

Allan.

 

[grodog]

First, I will quote myself as to Why Greyhawk?

I wrote about this a couple of years ago, summing up Greyhawk’s lasting appeal (in my eyes) as:

1. Greyhawk as a sandbox campaign setting
2. Greyhawk as a place of adventure inspiration and expansion
3. Greyhawk's fan community helps to keep the spirit of Greyhawk alive and relevant to today's gamers

(Much) more detail at Why Greyhawk in 2023? - grodog's Thoughts

Allan.

 

[Zeromaru X]

what specifically about Greyhawk turns you off—whether the new stuff, Gygax’s stuff, etc.

I think is more the Gygax stuff (stuff like racism, sexism, and that stuff he said), and the religious adherence to the old stuff in a belief (whether genuine or misguided) that "new is bad, old is good".

The setting as presented is interesting, but as soon as one tries to add something new (like, a dragonborn town, for instance) the setting seems to break in the eyes of the people. Like, you need to leave the setting as it was originally, and don't add anything new if you want to play Greyhawk the "true way".

The same happens with the Forgotten Realms, that's true, the fans can be... Kinda stubborn, to put it lightly. With the only difference that Ed Greenwood is a cool guy (and not a sexist, etc.), and he doesn't mind if you add something new. In fact, he creates lore to accommodate the new stuff in the setting all the time, even lore that he doesn't personally like (like the Spellplague stuff).

 

[grodog]

That was not my point. My point was that, if you are selling "isolationist elves" as one of the main highlights of Greyhawk, then there should be something really unique about the isolationist elves of Greyhawk that was not replicated in the other D&D settings. Otherwise, it's not really a selling point of the setting.

This is a good point, to which I would add that some groups of elves in Greyhawk are isolationist toward humans/etc. (Celene), while others espouse a more-engaged strategy (Prince Melf). However even that’s not the particularly unique aspect (insert Tolkien’s Finrod Felagund as Melf’s side…), because in Greyhawk a number of other elvish sub-races are isolationistic even toward most other elves:

• the drow are the obvious one, although they also have contact with surface dwellers, whom they raid, capture, and actively enslave—while remaining effectively unknown to the younger surface races
• valley elves are offshoots of grey elves who serve the ruler of Valley of the Mage (as do some allied offshoot gnomes too)
• the grugach, or wild elves, are even more xenophobic than sylvan/wood elves

Both valley and wild elves view all other elves as most elves do humanity….

Then there are other sub-elf races added via Dragon (snow elves, rock elves, etc.), and they’re also largely isolationists, although perhaps less xenophobic a than valley and wild elves.

Allan.

 

[Parmandur]

the only difference that Ed Greenwood is a cool guy (and not a sexist, etc.), and he doesn't mind if you add something new. In fact, he creates lore to accommodate the new stuff in the setting all the time, even lore that he doesn't personally like (like the Spellplague stuff).

I realized fairly recently what Greenwood has been doing for nearly 40 years now: his "official canon lore" is essentially a giant individual RPG campaign, and he is the DM orchestrating and improving "Yes, And" explanations for everything. everything, that people throw out there, whether at TSR or WtC or people who just those questions for him.

I prefer the original state of the Forgotten Realms, before TSR got silly woth it, bit Inrespect thw game Hreenwood is playing.

Gygax literally blew up the Flannaes in his last Greyhawk novel and never looked back.

 

[Zeromaru X]

Gygax literally blew up the Flannaes in his last Greyhawk novel and never looked back.

I read on Reddit that the Greyhawk Wars were basically Gygax destroying the setting because he couldn't use it anymore, or something like that.

 

[Parmandur]

I read on Reddit that the Greyhawk Wars were basically Gygax destroying the setting because he couldn't use it anymore, or something like that.

Nah, that was entirely different: that was a TSR product that came out years after Gygax was gone. It was a wargame that took all the conflicts on the cusp of happening in the Folio/Gold Box and played them out in mass combat. Then TSR decided a canon result, and...that was controversial.

Seperate from that, Gygax had the rights ro finish a few Greyhawk fiction novels after his severance from TSR...and Tharizdun eat Oerth in the end. No more world.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Greyhawk, on the other hand, has more of the idea of the "selfish spellcaster," .... there is no (or almost no) spellcasting for the general weal. Resurrection and healing are rare and expensive. Plagues are still ravaging the world, without abundant magical cures. That isolated villages still fear the night beyond their limited fires because there aren't magical lights everywhere.

I’m 57, and I’ve noticed some of my contemporaries have never considered anything besides the selfish spellcaster as an archetype, regardless of setting. Sometimes, regardless of actual RPG.

It definitely increases the difficulty level of certain scenarios.

 

[howandwhy99]

I think "The Greyhawk Wars" began with some dubious decisions made after the new buyout owners of TSR let Gary go.

First, it was publishing the most desirous product for Greyhawk, Castle Greyhawk, as a schmear and mockery of him and his work, and then not owning up to it when the fans grew angry.

Then, it was publishing a different setting in '87 as a default fantasy setting, Forgotten Realms (which only received mixed reviews until Salvatore's novels turned popular and Jaquays Savage Frontier)
- I would add Greenwood's "Waterdeep and the North", a popular and defining supplement, but around me all I heard was how it cloned so many ideas directly from Greyhawk. (Assumed almost certainly from the top). That was not a nice time.

Next, it was the changing of all Gary's IP. The AD&D ruleset was revamped top to bottom and put out as 2e, which has lived in infamy even as the book was easier to read. Due to this, conflict in the community was more than at any other time I remember.

But here is the real Greyhawk Wars. TSR then overwrote all Gary's IP rights in Greyhawk point for point. A 30-page document not unassumingly called "Greyhawk Wars" was published more than tweaking practically every blurb written for Greyhawk in the Catalogue.

"From the Ashes" is a different setting by a different author. Another hit on Gary by a company that bought Greyhawk when it was commercially as popular as Forgotten Realms was in the 90s.

The divide ruined the fan community for the setting. From '89-'95. FtA is not at all a bad setting, but the design instincts were all different. TSR had seemingly forgotten how to design settings for D&D as a game and it became more of a novel writing bible.

In the end the fans were as blasted as Gary, regardless of side. And Greyhawk was discontinued at Forgotten Realms height, which had subsumed it by then. (As did so many other new setting boxes from the early 90s.) And perhaps worst of all, the great newcomer who wrote Greyhawk at that time left the company and the hobby.

Things were at an all-time low by '95 and the end of D&D actually felt like a real possibility. Many unmentioned acts had led TSR to become a trainwreck.

The very first thing Wizards of the Coast did after buying TSR was publish a 3rd version of the setting. Ostensibly calling for the war to be over. (Unfortunately, by that time the field was largely empty).

I don't believe anyone wants to relate the history of the Greyhawk Wars for fear they will start again. Many complaints from both sides were legitimate. The personal grievances were real and likely remain. PLEASE DO NOT REKINDLE IT.

Being in SE Wisc I didn't actually get into Greyhawk because this conflict started shortly after joining the hobby. It took until years later for me to become a real follower, but I was lucky enough to listen to many knowledgeable others about it at the time. Now it's my favorite setting.

Last thing, why is Greyhawk so difficult to change today's game? Well, the history for one. But also because it was the house organ setting for AD&D. D&D is a setting building game, a requirement of play (by original design). And I always say Homebrew is the default setting. But Greyhawk is like Traveller's "Third Imperium", really everything in the core books are for Greyhawk alone. All the secrets, mysteries, personality, and idiosyncracies of the game are from Gary the artist.

By 4e this default setting recognition has largely changed. 5.x needs a setting of its own. One that resembles all the pieces players would presume are possible in it by default. No need for more grievances.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

That’s … an interpretation … of history. Blew past The Adventure Begins era. Or the beloved City of Greyhawk box.