The impacts of Fantasy on (fantasy) society

[Hussar]

All this discussion misses the basic point - the magic system in D&D was never designed to be implemented on a societal level. It was designed, right from the outset, to let players take their characters into dungeons and kill stuff.

Think about it for a second. Why is Continual Light/Flame (depending on edition) a second level spell? It always has been, but why? Well, by the time the group is 3rd level, they can start staying in the dungeon longer - they have the resources for extended forays. However, if you have to hump 50 gallon drums of lamp oil into the dungeon so that you can see where you're going, that gets to be a PITA.

So, enter Continual Light/Flame. Now you have an endless light source so you don't have to go back to town to stock up on lamp oil or torches and you can keep adventuring.

The same thing goes for virtually every utility spell in the game. That's WHY those utility spells are so low level. They are there to help you clear out the dungeon. What effect low level long duration magic would have on the society as a whole was never a design consideration.

If you want a fantasy world where the D&D magic system actually fits into the setting, rather than a tool for adventurers to go have adventures, then you need to redesign the magic system to fit that goal.

 

[Hussar]

[MENTION=40172]Ed_Laprade[/MENTION] - just commenting on your comment.

I'm not sure if it's sadly really. What do you want the game to be? Is it a game of heroic fantasy where big damn heroes go and do heroic things? Or, is it a fantasy world simulator a la Harn?

The problem comes, IMO, is when people try to use the wrong tools for the job. D&D is not a fantasy world simulator. Never has been. At best, there's a veneer of that, mostly enough to make a believable setting, or at least a setting that stands up to casual scrutiny. And then it gets back to the meat and potatoes, which is heroes doing heroic things.

Trying to make D&D into a fantasy world simulation is like trying to make your car into a boat. Yes, it can, and has, been done. But, there are much, much better things to get you going in water than a car.

 

[Derren]

Trying to make D&D into a fantasy world simulation is like trying to make your car into a boat. Yes, it can, and has, been done. But, there are much, much better things to get you going in water than a car.

Why does one exclude the other?
As long as D&D focuses only on combat and guys killing things in dungeons it will disappoint everyone who want more from their RPG.

 

[Hussar]

Why does one exclude the other?
As long as D&D focuses only on combat and guys killing things in dungeons it will disappoint everyone who want more from their RPG.

But, D&D has always, right from day 1, focused on guys killing things in dungeons. The magic system is built around that presumption. The classes are built around that presumption. EVERYTHING in the game is built around that presumption.

If your game is focused on heroes doing heroic things, it doesn't do world simulation very well, because the things that let you do heroic things don't scale to the general public. And, to prove that, all you have to do is look at every single edition of D&D and the magic system. Never mind the economic system, such as it is.

I mean, we've got a hundred spells that let me kill something in interesting ways, but, virtually no spells that let me deliver babies safely. No spells that govern marriage. No contract magic. Very, very little communication magic.

And the spells that aren't about killing stuff make society virtually impossible. Imagine what Detect Evil would actually do. You know that evil exists, it's an actual, real force in a D&D world. If someone detects as evil, killing them actually makes the universe a better place and you KNOW that that person is going to go to their just reward - you have a GOD telling you that that is true.

It's insane.

OTOH, a PHB full of home making magic and gardening spells isn't going to make a really interesting RPG. Nor are we likely to see the mid-wife class any time soon. I don't know about you, but, my players aren't terribly keen on playing Farmer: The Milking.

 

[Blackwarder]

But, D&D has always, right from day 1, focused on guys killing things in dungeons. The magic system is built around that presumption. The classes are built around that presumption. EVERYTHING in the game is built around that presumption.

If your game is focused on heroes doing heroic things, it doesn't do world simulation very well, because the things that let you do heroic things don't scale to the general public. And, to prove that, all you have to do is look at every single edition of D&D and the magic system. Never mind the economic system, such as it is.

I mean, we've got a hundred spells that let me kill something in interesting ways, but, virtually no spells that let me deliver babies safely. No spells that govern marriage. No contract magic. Very, very little communication magic.

And the spells that aren't about killing stuff make society virtually impossible. Imagine what Detect Evil would actually do. You know that evil exists, it's an actual, real force in a D&D world. If someone detects as evil, killing them actually makes the universe a better place and you KNOW that that person is going to go to their just reward - you have a GOD telling you that that is true.

It's insane.

OTOH, a PHB full of home making magic and gardening spells isn't going to make a really interesting RPG. Nor are we likely to see the mid-wife class any time soon. I don't know about you, but, my players aren't terribly keen on playing Farmer: The Milking.

Exactemondu! The PHB is filled with spells usefull while adventuring, but a lot of those are also usefull with other stuff.
I've been reading the book Michaelsomthing posted at the top of the page and it got some good point, like Mage hand being usefull while planting because it's essentially double the productivity of the workers, or the fact that cure disease change the nature of plagues.

Warder

 

[Andor]

OTOH, a PHB full of home making magic and gardening spells isn't going to make a really interesting RPG. Nor are we likely to see the mid-wife class any time soon. I don't know about you, but, my players aren't terribly keen on playing Farmer: The Milking.

There is more than one game out there that do include such spells. Heroquest and WorldTree leap to mind. Notably, perhaps, neither one is class based, although Heroquest comes close due to the cultural and religeous strictures that tend to bind characters into dedicated roles. And D&D does include (or did in 3e) a dedicated healer class who had almost no offensive abilities. Hell, in 3e you could take a vow of pacifism.

And you're right that D&D magic has never made much sense from a societal viewpoint. It's mostly useless in day to day life.

But that doesn't mean it's stupid or pointless to try imagining what that world should look like. I have no interest in playing in a world that makes no sense to me. Indeed, that was probably my disconnect with 4e, I just couldn't understand what the hell things were supposed to look like from my characters point of view.

Maybe magic is mostly offensive because the god of magic is a hotheaded kind of guy. Maybe there is no midwifery spell because the goddess of motherhood is held captive in hell (and how epic a quest would it be to free her?)

I really don't see what is to be gained be refusing to think about interesting questions.

 

[Hussar]

It's not a case of refusing to think of interesting questions. It's a case of actually thinking about interesting questions and realizing that once you scratch through the paper thin veneer of setting cruft that D&D has, it makes about as much sense as cardboard hammers.

Sure, you can start rewriting the game to include all sorts of checks and balances on why magic is mostly offensive and the like, but, you're going to be at it a REALLY long time. Mostly because D&D is not built that way. As soon as you start actually applying D&D magic and fantasy (including monsters and all sorts of other goodies) to a working, believable world, you realize it doesn't work.

Funny that you should take a poke at 4e here. Because 4e doesn't have any long term magic outside of rituals, you can create a setting that actually works with the mechanics right from the get go, without having to rewrite vast swaths of the rules to get there. IOW, 4e is the first version of D&D to actually be able to do what you want to do - create believable worlds that don't have mile wide plot holes in them.

Other games? Oh sure. But, that's because those games were built from the ground up with the premise that the magic system has to function in a larger society. D&D isn't one of those games.

 

[Derren]

But, D&D has always, right from day 1, focused on guys killing things in dungeons. The magic system is built around that presumption. The classes are built around that presumption. EVERYTHING in the game is built around that presumption.

And if D&D continues that way it will fail.
4E has shown that people are not interested any more in midnless hack & slash. Or rather, people who are interested in it can play WoW and other video games with their friends.

Video games are competing with PnP RPGs and to survive PnPs have to focus on their strenghts, what they can do better than video games.
Small hint: Its not moving figures on a grid and attacking monsters with powers while rolling dice.

 

[Andor]

Funny that you should take a poke at 4e here. Because 4e doesn't have any long term magic outside of rituals, you can create a setting that actually works with the mechanics right from the get go, without having to rewrite vast swaths of the rules to get there. IOW, 4e is the first version of D&D to actually be able to do what you want to do - create believable worlds that don't have mile wide plot holes in them.

I wasn't commenting on 4e from a world building point of view, I was saying that part of the reason I never put enough effort into it to actually hunt down a group willing to play it (I've never stumbled across one) is that when I look at a power like "Come and Get it" or "Blinding Barrage" I have no idea what that looks like in the world. I'm supposed to believe a 1st level rogue can shoot 9 people in the eyes with a crossbow in 6 seconds? I'd have trouble believing the Flash could do that.

From a world building perspective however I'm genuinely curious what you mean to say. The continual flame spell is not really the point of unbelievability in D&D world building. 4e still has magical healing but no midwifery or farming spells. You have a cure ritual that can kill people, which I suppose might explain the continued existence of plagues. However you also have an extremely powerful transportation ritual in "Linked Portal", one that would completely change long distance travel for the wealthy. Likewise sending and voice/hand of fate. Enchantment is now readily available, even more so than in 3e where you had to be a spell caster to do it. In theory in 4e every single canton or town should have someone trained in Arcana and with knowledge of that ritual. So where are the heat-your-house/plow-your-field items? All you need to make one is that ritual and cash. There ought to be wandering enchanters exactly like the old wandering smiths. You still have powerful mages who have spent decades building magical power and from have gained ... more boom. They can't even fly anymore, not for more than 5 minutes. Why do they bother?

At any rate, how does 4e's magic setup with less useful spells but vastly easier magic item construction make the world less full of plot holes?

 

[Argyle King]

Most of the 'plot holes' which bother me when playing 4E come from the inconsistent nature of how PCs interact with the numbers the world is built upon and how everything else interacts with the numbers the world is built upon.

While that is not specific to magic, I think it does tie into the topic because there are things which people can (easily) learn to do which make some of the Points of Light concepts not make sense. I just recently wrapped up a 4E game I was running; it was the most fun I had running a 4E game. Part of the reason why -for me- is because I set the game in a world which was not like traditional fantasy. I went in a little bit of a sci-fi direction and had things such as hover bikes powered by residuum, magic wands which looked like blaster rifles, and etc.

On that note, I think Hussar has some really good points about D&D not being built with the intention of having everything make sense. D&D is a game I play and enjoy, but, if you want something which stands up under a more scrutinizing look, you're probably better off finding a game which is built that way right out of the gate rather than house ruling D&D until it becomes a different game.

Though, by all means, there's no reason you can't spend your time house ruling and reworking the system; I certainly have done my fair share of modifying 4E, but -for me- I found that there comes a point when it's easier to just play a different game.