D&D is NOT Kobolds surviving Fireball

[Oni]

But, that's not a cut and dried question.

First off, you're dropping a 5th level character resource on an encounter that is WAY below their weight class. Even in AD&D, fireballing kobolds was overkill by a whole pile. Why would you bother? The fighter is getting 5 attacks per round (lower than 1 HD creature - or is that a Basic/Expert rule that I'm misremembering?) and you've likely got 3 fighter types. 15 attacks per round, why would you bother?

So, sure, in AD&D, you're pretty much autokilling kobolds with a fireball. You probably should since this is about 1/2 way to max level for most campaigns. A better equivalency would be to look at a 5th level 3e spell (1/2 way to max level) and a 15th level power for 4e.

Now, all of a sudden, kobolds automatically die in every case.

The scaling between editions is different. There is no such thing as a 1:1 relationship. Fireball in 1e was the go to combat spell because you're likely not going to see anything higher than about 5th level, ever. Fireball was a fairly minor combat spell in 3e, because the campaign is presumed to go much higher level. Fireball in 4e is a low level attack spell that gets superseded fairly quickly.

Differing scales makes the discussion pretty difficult.

The problem with this is that Fireball is an absolutely quintessential D&D spell, and if it doesn't behave as one expects a D&D Fireball to behave then it going to cause a huge disconnect, and as should be more than a little obvious by now, that's going to be hugely off-putting to a goodly number of people. It's the accumulation of a litany of little things like this that make people start to cry "Not D&D!" That is of course a bit of a subjective judgement, maybe they're right, maybe they're not, but that is why that happens.

 

[triqui]

I think you will find, when pressed, most D&D players will admit to preferring that most Kobolds will die from most fireballs.

If you really want to narrow the criteria to "How many average Kobolds should die to a maxed-out fireball" as seems to be the question, most D&D players will say "most or all of them"

What more do you want from us?

I think the reason you're finding resistance to answer the question straight is you've imposed limitations on the answer you will accept. Most gamers are like herding cats. Push 'em one way they will go the other.

Regular MINIONS should die in one fireball (or warrior's Cleave, for that matter). Be those minions kobolds, goblins, orcs, HUMANS, or even devils.

Kobolds who aren't minions (ie: a 4e Elite Kobold Chieftain or a 3.5 Kobold with 8 levels in Sorcerer and Dragon Disciple prestige class) shouldn't die to a fireball.

The resistance to the question is because it is a flawed question, with wrong assumptions, lame description, lack of game understanding, poor research about D&D history background to date, and subtle attempt to edition-warring.

 

[Steely_Dan]

Similar as to others have mentioned: my buddy's 13th level Goblin Fighter does not agree.

But I know what you're saying, almost a minimum damage fireball should kill an average kobold (and yes, as others have said, minions in 4th Ed, but somehow it doesn't quite cut it for me, even though I use minion-like mechanics in pre-4th Ed).

 

[Hussar]

The problem with this is that Fireball is an absolutely quintessential D&D spell, and if it doesn't behave as one expects a D&D Fireball to behave then it going to cause a huge disconnect, and as should be more than a little obvious by now, that's going to be hugely off-putting to a goodly number of people. It's the accumulation of a litany of little things like this that make people start to cry "Not D&D!" That is of course a bit of a subjective judgement, maybe they're right, maybe they're not, but that is why that happens.

But, fireball hasn't really done what is being claimed in a long time. Sure, fireball will kill a MM kobold. Totally agree. It will do so in 4e as well. But, "standard" kobold and the idea that monsters were more or less limited to their monster manual write ups hasn't been true for years.

Why weren't people bitching about the lack of the "quintessential" power of a fireball in 3e when you couldn't reasonably kill an ogre with it? In 1e, you could kill a frigging HILL GIANT with a fireball. Fireballs went from this uber damage spell to a moderate damage spell in 2e and further in 3e and yet further in 4e.

Why should we be beholden to game design that hasn't been true in over twenty years?

 

[prosfilaes]

Regular MINIONS should die in one fireball (or warrior's Cleave, for that matter). Be those minions kobolds, goblins, orcs, HUMANS, or even devils.

Minions don't work for me. Maybe if I were playing Feng Shui, they might, but they're too cinematic to fit in with the simulationist parts of D&D for me. Another part of it is that I've seen this scenario play out too often:

Player: That's a natural 20 ... and I've confirmed.
DM: Okay, they're dead.
Player: (rolling) So let's see that 12d6 + 12, 22, 42, 67 points of damage. Oh, and they're evil outsiders so I do another 2d8. (rolls) 74 points of damage. So how much did I kill them by?

First time I met a minion, I got deprived of my right to roll damage for my magic missile. The wording in that sentence should show how I felt about the matter.

Kobolds who aren't minions (ie: a 4e Elite Kobold Chieftain or a 3.5 Kobold with 8 levels in Sorcerer and Dragon Disciple prestige class) shouldn't die to a fireball.

What about your bog-standard kobold? A bog-standard kobold chieftain should fall right alongside his buddies.

The resistance to the question is because it is a flawed question, with wrong assumptions, lame description, lack of game understanding, poor research about D&D history background to date, and subtle attempt to edition-warring.

It wasn't the clearest question, but I think that's a little unfair. If D&D Next is going to maintain a D&D feel, there's going to need to be kobolds and fireballs, and they're going to need to figure out their relative power. He believes that a fireball should dominate, and I'm agree with that. I don't know how to balance everything, but they'll have a hard time selling to me if I can't blow stuff up with fireballs.

 

[Starbuck_II]

My greybeard is showing but to me dnd kobolds are Tuckers Kobolds. Not only will they survive it they will take that wand of fireball and jam it some place uncomfortable most likely.

Um, original Tucker's Kobold die easily.
They live only because of numbers, tactics, and the player were used to hack and slash.

 

[Redbadge]

My 8th lvl 4E wizard can kill any standard 1st or 2nd lvl kobold with one Fireball.

Our 4e wizard could do it when he was 5th level, so 4th edition characters can kill kobolds in one hit at the level they get fireball (same as 3.x):

Kobold Slinger; 24 HP; 14 Reflex

5th Level Fireball: +11 vs Reflex (+ 13 with CA); 4d6 + 10 fire damage; 34 + 2d8 fire damage on crit; Half damage on Miss

This 5th level 4e wizard does 24.1 damage on average to a kobold with 24 hit points.

My 4e thief (Zietgiest campaign) would kill this same kobold in one hit on average at level 1 (he's level 5 now, though).

 

[triqui]

But, fireball hasn't really done what is being claimed in a long time. Sure, fireball will kill a MM kobold. Totally agree. It will do so in 4e as well. But, "standard" kobold and the idea that monsters were more or less limited to their monster manual write ups hasn't been true for years.

Why weren't people bitching about the lack of the "quintessential" power of a fireball in 3e when you couldn't reasonably kill an ogre with it? In 1e, you could kill a frigging HILL GIANT with a fireball. Fireballs went from this uber damage spell to a moderate damage spell in 2e and further in 3e and yet further in 4e.

Why should we be beholden to game design that hasn't been true in over twenty years?

So true. There was a time when a Red Dragon had 88hp. In those times, 10d6 from a Lightning bolt would had been a big dent in their life. In 3.X, those Red Dragons had more than 400 hp. The "quintaessential fireball" is not the same in 3.X than it was in AD&D, or the Red Box or whatever.

 

[triqui]

Minions don't work for me. Maybe if I were playing Feng Shui, they might, but they're too cinematic to fit in with the simulationist parts of D&D for me. Another part of it is that I've seen this scenario play out too often:

Player: That's a natural 20 ... and I've confirmed.
DM: Okay, they're dead.
Player: (rolling) So let's see that 12d6 + 12, 22, 42, 67 points of damage. Oh, and they're evil outsiders so I do another 2d8. (rolls) 74 points of damage. So how much did I kill them by?

First time I met a minion, I got deprived of my right to roll damage for my magic missile. The wording in that sentence should show how I felt about the matter.

"Minions" is both an english word, and a 4e game term. I don't really care that much if you like or not the 4e Minion, it's up to you. But minions (the english word) are part of D&D, since the begining of Chainmail. A kobold is, by definition, a minion. You don't roll damage for your fireballs against kobolds either. 10d6 insta-kill guys with 4 hp, regardless of save, so unless you like roll-playing and the sound of die in the table, there's no point to roll damage. If you want to hear the die rolls, you can do so against 4e minions too. There's no difference between 1hp and 4hp in 99% of the cases. Your useless 74 hp damage roll is pointless against a 4e minion kobold, and it is pointless against a 4hp 3.X kobold too. If you just like to roll for the sake of rolling, you can do so in both editions.

What about your bog-standard kobold? A bog-standard kobold chieftain should fall right alongside his buddies.

They do. In both editions. A standard 5th level wizard casting fireball would kill a level 1 kobold in 4e too. Sure, he won't kill an Elite Chieftain. But a 5d6 fireball won't kill a Kobold with 5 levels in Barbarian in 3.X either.

It wasn't the clearest question, but I think that's a little unfair. If D&D Next is going to maintain a D&D feel, there's going to need to be kobolds and fireballs, and they're going to need to figure out their relative power. He believes that a fireball should dominate, and I'm agree with that. I don't know how to balance everything, but they'll have a hard time selling to me if I can't blow stuff up with fireballs.

He believes fireball should dominate.... what? What does fireball need to dominate?

His question was absurd, because it lacks a clear understanding about D&D history, about Fireball in different editions, and about kobolds in different editions. Should the Fireball clear the room of pesky low-level critters that are nothing more than mere annoyances? Sure. And fireballs have done so in all editions. 4e fireballs clear the room of pesky CR-1 humanoids, with no problem. With Minion rules, or without Minion rules. What 4e does not, is to clean a room with CR-5 humanoids. However, 3.X does not do that either. If you have a room with 5th level ranger Kobolds (a CR 5 humanoid), 5d6 fireball is not going to kill them.

 

[Redbadge]

Our 4e wizard could do it when he was 5th level, so 4th edition characters can kill kobolds in one hit at the level they get fireball (same as 3.x):

Kobold Slinger; 24 HP; 14 Reflex

5th Level Fireball: +11 vs Reflex (+ 13 with CA); 4d6 + 10 fire damage; 34 + 2d8 fire damage on crit; Half damage on Miss

This 5th level 4e wizard does 24.1 damage on average to a kobold with 24 hit points.

My 4e thief (Zietgiest campaign) would kill this same kobold in one hit on average at level 1 (he's level 5 now, though).

In case anyone doubts my thief's ability to cream 4e kobolds at level 1, here is how you replicate it:

----------------------------------------------------
Level 1 Human Thief
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Dex(20) +5
Rogue's Trick: Acrobat's Trick
Background: Gritty Sergeant (Rapier)
Feat: Surprising Charge
Feat: Light Blade Expertise

Attack: 5(Dex) + 3(Prof) + 2(CA) + 1(Charge) + 1(Light Blade Expertise) = 12 vs AC (7+12-1)/20 ) = Miss(1-2) Hit(3-19) Crit(20)
Damage: 1d8(Rapier) + 1d8(Surprising Charge) + 2d6(Sneak Attack) + 5(Dex) + 2(Weapon Finesse) + 2(Acrobat's Trick) + 1(Light Blade Expertise) = 26 (averaged)
Crit: 8(Rapier) + 8(Surprising Charge) + 12(Sneak Attack) + 5(Dex) + 2(Weapon Finesse) + 2(Acrobat's Trick) + 1(Light Blade Expertise) = 38
Average Damage: 0.10*0 + 0.85*26 + 0.05*38 = 24