D&D is NOT Kobolds surviving Fireball

[TwoSix]

This is the time for building bridges, not burning them.

Ahh, but can fireball burn that bridge?

 

[underfoot007ct]

Maybe if you also posted in Haiku?

What's the matter with the characters I'm playing?

"Can't you tell that your Hit Point's are too high?"

Maybe I should buy some old Red box sets or die?

"Welcome back to the era of Gygax & Grognardian

What uber feats have you been pickin' out lately, honey?

You can't fight cheesey till you spend a lot of money.

Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new "Edition" Next

Funny, but it's still Dungeons & Dragons to me...

-Silly Troll

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Tucker's kobolds as core kobolds in 5e, and be little dog men

Yes! I have a much bigger problem with Kobolds being lizardmen than I do with them surviving fireball. To me, they will always be dog-goat-goblin-rat crosses.

 

[Filcher]

I just wanted to point this out as a benchmark of what D&D should feel like.

Torgo the Eye-Gouger mocks your assumptions.

 

[triqui]

I just wanted to point this out as a benchmark of what D&D should feel like.

To not even be able to take out Kobolds with a Fireball...well to paraphrase
Homer Simpson: " That is not D&D, That is not even Mexico"
( No offense to Mexico, which has significantly improved since when Fishbulb first uttered that statement).


4E lost me on that point of feel. 4E Kobolds are great, as Goblins, and with about 12 less Hp Fireball should be able to kill both of them.


So let's talk about the correct power level for Fireball.


I think the universal bare minimum for a fireball's power level is:
(in the form of a statement)


A Fireball doing MAX damage should be able to outright kill any undamaged Kobold.




I personally would posit that the same should be true for Goblins.


I would cap the level at say:


A Fireball doing Max damage will kill many Orcs
A Fireball doing Max damage would hurt, possibly seriously some Bugbears.

I've seen kobolds with class levels in 3.X. They not only were able to withstand a fireball, but some had evasion an took no damage from it.

I don't understand what does 4e have to be with this

 

[Herschel]

It doesn't have anything to do with this, it's Edition War.

What you say is factual, but that's not where feelings originate and the OP talks about the "feel". It also seems to not be as much about actual kobolds, but having Wizards have a spell that wipes everything out. Kobolds are the baseline monster that shouldn't stand a chance of survival.

 

[Somebloke]

Dear OP,

4e models a fireball killing a swath of kobolds perfectly.

It is called 'minions'.

Minions are meant to model lower level creatures (such as Kobolds, a 1st

level creature) at higher levels (such as 5, when you get fireball).

They are expressly there for this reason.

Complaining that 4e doesn't do fireball justice and ignoring minions is like

removing the brakes from your car and then claiming that all cars are

dangerous.

The buzz from 5e indicates that they intend to use hp as a means to map

out effective monster strength, meaning that chances are your 5e fireball

will kill your 5e kobold warrior.

Now then,

I hope this has

been a valuable lesson.

Rest easy now.

 

[Oni]

The problem is your definition of "worth casting" is single-handedly wiping out entire encounters while leaving the rest of your party sitting around twiddling their thumbs. It was quick, it was tidy.... and entirely pointless for the rest of the players to even be in the room. This happens more and more as spellcasters gain levels and is a huge flaw in the game design.

This is only an issue of you're balancing around the encounter, insisting that everyone do something cool each and every encounter, rather than balancing around the adventure and accepting that some encounters will be dominated by just one or two players, and that is okay, everyone will get their moment in the sun.

 

[Oni]

Double post

 

[Herschel]

This is only an issue of you're balancing around the encounter, insisting that everyone do something cool each and every encounter, rather than balancing around the adventure and accepting that some encounters will be dominated by just one or two players, and that is okay, everyone will get their moment in the sun.

Except that is poor game design. Artificially moderating and micro-managing the game for "spotlight balance" is just another form of railroading. When you can tell a story and everyone has their chance to do some cool things makes the story better for everyone involved. There are a ton of great stories about what has happened in 4E, but it didn't come at the expense of other players' ability to do cool things too, they're cool just stood out because of the situation.

Creativity and narration are just as valid in a balanced game as any other, and the balanced game offers more consistent fun to all involved.

It's also bad when players often have to sit around while others get to do fun things. D&D is an interactive game and party play and synergy are great aspects of it.

Example: It's great fun when a Wizard gets a Big Bad to fail his sleep save and then everyone bum rushes it to get their crits on (often taking attacks from henchmen) but less fun for the wizard to just blast everything in the room to smithereens while everyone else just watches.

In both cases the Wizard used a powerful spell to turn the tide, but in the former everyone else was involved in the fun instead of just watching.

D&D is not a spectator sport.