D&D 5E Fluff and Mechanics in 5e

B.T.

First Post
Of the many failings of 3e and 4e both was the handling of mechanics. In 5e, I want three things for the mechanics of the game:

1. The fluff must represent what is happening the mechanics.
2. The fluff must not be poorly-written.
3. The mechanics must not be cumbersome.

3e and 4e were terrible in this regard for different reasons. In 3e, the mechanics often matched the fluff so closely that it resulted in a quagmire of dice rolls. For instance, take any of the combat maneuvers available. Everyone knows that grappling was a mess, but let's talk disarming for a moment.

Disarming seems like a pretty basic maneuver that could be resolved relatively easily. Depending on my mood, I might handle it as an opposed attack roll, or I might make it a normal attack that required a saving throw to avoid. 3e, on the other hand, decided to make it complicated.

Step one: You're trying an unusual attack maneuver. Unless you're specially trained in disarming, you should be awkward when attempting it, so you provoke an attack of opportunity. Then, if the AoO hits and you take damage, you can't concentrate any longer, so you fail the disarm check. Makes sense.

Step two: Make an opposed attack roll as your weapons smash together and you try to gain the advantage. It's hard to disarm large creatures, and some weapons are easier to disarm (or disarm with) than others. Apply bonuses and penalties to the roll.

Step three: Find out what happens. Did you win the roll? Then the attacker is disarmed. If you're unarmed, you are now holding the weapon because you grabbed it from him. If you're wielding a weapon, you disarm your opponent and his weapon drops to the ground. If your opponent won the roll, though, you're in one of those swords-clashing-together-complete-with-sparks moments, and he gets to try and disarm you.

And that is not how the game should work. It's a complicated mess. It discourages players from attempting to use the mechanic.

On the other hand, 4e had a number of powers that were easy enough to use, but they didn't accurately convey what was happening in the game (or the fluff was eye-rollingly bad). Take, for instance, marking. What the hell is marking? The term "marking" tells me nothing. It doesn't explain what it is or how it functions. Why does a fighter's mark impede a paladin's (outside of game balance concerns)? It don't make no sense. You can rationalize these things, but once you need rationalizations, you have failed.

When a fighter uses Power Attack in 3e, there's no real question about what's going on with his character: he's swinging wildly, sacrificing accuracy in his attack for damage. It makes sense. When the cleric casts bless, there's no confusion about what's going on. When the wizard casts magic missile and the spell notes that the missile strikes unerringly, nobody questions what's happening.

In 4e, when the fighter uses Tide of Iron, I get what's going on. But when the 4e fighter invokes Combat Superiority to add his Wisdom modifier to his attack rolls or uses Villain's Menace, I'm not really sure what is going on from an in-character perspective. I'm asking myself, "How does the fighter do this?" When the rogue uses Torturous Strike, I'm confused about the rogue "twist[ing] the blade in the wound just so [to] you can make your enemy howl in pain." The effects of this exploit? 2[W] + Dex damage, add your Strength modifier if you're a Brutal Scoundrel. I'm not seeing the "twisting the blade" bit. (If I were writing the power, I might allow the rogue to use a move action to do an additional 1[W] damage to represent the twisting, but that's beside the point.)

Likewise, if I really want to nitpick, let's talk Righteous Brand. The cleric smacks his enemy with his mace and a glowing rune shows up, giving everyone a bonus on attack rolls? Lame. That is the worst fluff justification for a power's effects that I have ever read. It's clear that the writers wanted to give the cleric an attack power and that he needed a "leader" quality to it, so they slapped on a bonus on attacks and then scribbled some fluff onto it.

That's awful. That needs to end right now. Fluff and mechanics need to go hand-in-hand. Write the fluff first and then write mechanics that simulate what's going on.

Ultimately, 5e needs to merge the smoother mechanical resolution process of 4e with the "simulationism" of 3e.

Thoughts?
 

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GreyICE

Banned
Banned
Combat Challenge
In combat, it’s dangerous to ignore a fighter. Every
time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or
misses, you can choose to mark that target. The mark
lasts until the end of your next turn. While a target
is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any
attack that doesn’t include you as a target. A creature
can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark
supersedes a mark that was already in place.

In addition, whenever a marked enemy that is
adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack that does not
include you, you can make a melee basic attack against
that enemy as an immediate interrupt.

It seems clear to me...
 



B.T.

First Post
Indeed. Is the complaint that the name of the game term doesn't convey 100% of the information you need about it?
Point of that specific ability is that the name conveys no idea of what's going on. It's not a well-written ability. If I have a power called "Spur Mount," I expect it to involve my mount going faster. If I have a power called "Sudden Dodge," I expect it to involve avoiding an attack. If I have a power called "Mark," I have no idea what to expect outside of perhaps writing on my enemy.
I am very surprised, however, that Come and Get It was not invoked in the OP.
Deliberately avoided for the sake of sanity.
 
Last edited:

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
If I have a power called "Mark," I have no idea what to expect outside of perhaps writing on my enemy.

Except you didn't have a power called 'Mark'. You had a power called 'Combat Challenge'. And that says pretty much what it means.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Except you didn't have a power called 'Mark'. You had a power called 'Combat Challenge'. And that says pretty much what it means.

THIS.

"Marking" is the effect of "Combat Challenge", which was the name of the power. I knew some tables that called "marking" "challenging", which like other keywords like slowed, weakened or immobilized better conveys the effects of the power.

So yes, sometimes the terminology isn't perfect, but a rose by any other name will smell just as sweet.
 

Andor

First Post
I think the actual point is that is is very hard to explain why a Fighter's mark wipes out a Paladin's mark from an in-world perspective. What just happened and why?

Back on topic, I agree completely. Fluff and mechanics are two sides of the same coin. Having one without the other makes Euclid cry.
 

I think the actual point is that is is very hard to explain why a Fighter's mark wipes out a Paladin's mark from an in-world perspective. What just happened and why?

Back on topic, I agree completely. Fluff and mechanics are two sides of the same coin. Having one without the other makes Euclid cry.

Marking a person is like ball room dancing with them. It's a you and me affair. While three people could do it together, it would get awkward and messy.

What would actually happen when two guys try to mark the same enemy is that they would get in each others way and cancel each other out. Or that only one mark could actually apply because getting marked twice is like trying to shove two different hamburgers down your throat. Or that the two different markers would make opposed rolls each round to see who gets to mark the enemy.
 

Marking a person is like ball room dancing with them. It's a you and me affair. While three people could do it together, it would get awkward and messy.

What would actually happen when two guys try to mark the same enemy is that they would get in each others way and cancel each other out. Or that only one mark could actually apply because getting marked twice is like trying to shove two different hamburgers down your throat. Or that the two different markers would make opposed rolls each round to see who gets to mark the enemy.
I don't know, I'm not quite seeing this. If a target got marked by the fighter and the paladin, couldn't it still work? The target is in a hard situation where he has to choose one or the other to focus his attention on, leaving the other to take advantage of their mark. Kind of makes sense really when you are outnumbered by trained and skillful opponents. A skilled target though might be able to target both the markers with an attack (even cleave might be made to suffice for such a situation) and thus defend against both of them. Just a thought.

In principle though I support a fluff first approach, supported by representative and flavourful mechanics. Sometimes though to be representative, the mechanics are going to be somewhat cumbersome some of the time.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

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