D&D 5E Fluff and Mechanics in 5e

Rhenny

Adventurer
Of the many failings of 3e and 4e both was the handling of mechanics. In 5e, I want three things for the mechanics of the game:

1. The fluff must represent what is happening the mechanics.
2. The fluff must not be poorly-written.
3. The mechanics must not be cumbersome.

.....

In 4e, when the fighter uses Tide of Iron, I get what's going on. But when the 4e fighter invokes Combat Superiority to add his Wisdom modifier to his attack rolls or uses Villain's Menace, I'm not really sure what is going on from an in-character perspective. I'm asking myself, "How does the fighter do this?" When the rogue uses Torturous Strike, I'm confused about the rogue "twist[ing] the blade in the wound just so [to] you can make your enemy howl in pain." The effects of this exploit? 2[W] + Dex damage, add your Strength modifier if you're a Brutal Scoundrel. I'm not seeing the "twisting the blade" bit. (If I were writing the power, I might allow the rogue to use a move action to do an additional 1[W] damage to represent the twisting, but that's beside the point.)

Thoughts?

I agree with you. I think what you've posted really touches on a number of issues.

First, in line with many of the threads that speak about language use/roleplaying, using a term like "Marked" is a meta-game short-hand that represents a mechanic...kind of like a "macro" in a computer game. The very way that all of the powers are named also function like a "macro". They make it easy for players to just use one or two words instead of actually narrating what they really want to do. I think this is what made many people say that 4e played more like a video game. Yes, I know there is flavor text for each power, but after reading it once, most people forget about it, and if used more than once, it becomes repetitive. I also realize that some groups (super players and DMs) work hard to narrate rather than rely on the shorthand, but I believe that is rare mostly because combat takes so much time, I believe many groups try whatever possible to speed it up.

Second, when each action is conflated into a "macro" and players use the shorthand to say, "I'll attack with Tide of Iron," or "I mark my foe," or "I use Sly Flourish," combats become mechanical, often repetitive and less interesting.

Third, although the attack mechanic from 4e eliminated the need for a saving throw by having the attack target a specific defense (Reflex, Fortitude, Will) and this was a brilliant idea to streamline the attack, I believe that many players (especially the ones used to earlier editions) felt that the extra conditions stacked upon the initial attack felt unfair.

When the designers tinker with the issues you've mentioned, these are also some of the problems they need to address.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

GreyICE

Banned
Banned
Ok then there is no GOOD reason for two fighters not to be able to mark the same target.

Oh and by the way :

"In combat it is dangerous to ignore the fighter."

STILL doesn't tell us WHAT the fighter is doing since this ability has to purposefully declared and activated. Our dangerous fighter better remember to mark or we can safely ignore him.

Again, no it doesn't.

I wish you would take a second to STOP AND READ THE RULES TEXT.

But instead you have decided to argue from complete ignorance, and it is utterly amazing.

This, combined with several other problems, has just earned this posted a week's suspension. Be polite to each other, please. It's always okay if not everyone agrees with you. -- Piratecat



... Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target. The mark lasts until the end of your next turn.

So it does tell you exactly what the fighter is doing. If he attacks somebody, then that person is marked. What is that mark? Well time in the game isn't done in a series of stop and go motions like some weird play, it's continuous.

That mark is the fighter ATTACKING YOU. And if you don't pay attention to the guy whose attacking you, he gets a few extra hits in.

To figure this out you have to read the power and realize it does EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS. Don't ignore the guy attacking you, or you'll suffer for it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Andor

First Post
God, again with the not reading the power.

"In combat it is dangerous to ignore the fighter."

Not "in combat, the fighter shouts taunts at you until you get really angry with him." It says "It is dangerous to ignore the fighter."

What does the mechanic do? If you stop paying attention to a fighter, you get hit with the pointy sword. There's no compulsion. There's just a guy with a very sharp sword who wants to stick it in your face, and if you don't pay attention to him he's going to do exactly that.

Unless the Paladin uses his Divine Challange. That, for some reason, wipes the Fighters mark and now it IS safe to ignore the Fighter in combat. Why?

As MichaelSomething said, it's for game balance reasons. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything that actually happened or makes sense inside the game world.

You can't roleplay your way out of that, it is a meta-system mechanic that intrudes forcefully upon what it happening within the game world. And that sucks. It is bad game design. It is not fun to see, read or argue about. I'll be perfectly happy if meta-system concerns do not screw with my 5e gameplay. And they don't have to. Any number of other games have proved that meta-system fudging is not needed, not for balance, not for fun, not for any degree of tactical roleplaying.

You know where meta-system mechanics have a place? Narrative systems where you want the players to be able to grab the wheel from the GM for a moment. Or 'Fate point' mechanics to allow gritty dangerous worlds where you don't need to roll a new PC every week.

But at the round-to-round tactical level? That crap needs to go.
 

Andor

First Post
Again, no it doesn't.

I wish you would take a second to STOP AND READ THE RULES TEXT.

So it does tell you exactly what the fighter is doing. If he attacks somebody, then that person is marked. What is that mark? Well time in the game isn't done in a series of stop and go motions like some weird play, it's continuous.

That mark is the fighter ATTACKING YOU. And if you don't pay attention to the guy whose attacking you, he gets a few extra hits in.

To figure this out you have to read the power and realize it does EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS. Don't ignore the guy attacking you, or you'll suffer for it.

This is COMPLETELY UNTRUE!

If a fighter marks a foe, and then some power slides him out the door and off a cliff the foe is still marked. Even if the fighter is dead or on another plane of existence the foe will STILL get a -2 to hit anyone but the fighter.

Kindly justify that, and then explain why a Paladins Divine Challange will wipe a Fighters combat challange for in-world reasons.
 

GreyICE

Banned
Banned
This is COMPLETELY UNTRUE!

If a fighter marks a foe, and then some power slides him out the door and off a cliff the foe is still marked. Even if the fighter is dead or on another plane of existence the foe will STILL get a -2 to hit anyone but the fighter.

Kindly justify that, and then explain why a Paladins Divine Challange will wipe a Fighters combat challange for in-world reasons.

This can't happen.

If the fighter is attacking somebody, and then he's transported to another plane of existance, well then that happens in the next round of combat. You said it yourself - and then.

If as the fighter is attacking something (and that creature is fighting him off the creature stumbles back, hits a dimensional portal, and falls through it, well, if the dimensional transit that occurred during the round takes less than the remainder of the round, when the (very confused) monster stumbles out of the portal he'll still take a second or two to realize that the guy swinging the sword in his face is gone.

Again, the mark lasts one round (six seconds) and the fighter is attacking him during that round. So all in all what you're complaining about is it takes the monster... What? Maybe 1-2 seconds to figure out the fighter is no longer a threat? And that's the great big immersion breaking flaw in the system that you absolutely can't abide?

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

As for simulationist inconsistencies that make the rules more streamlined and fairer, that's D&D. It's never been simulationist or realistic, from it's very beginning, and was never ever designed to be. Gygax himself called the notion absurd. Go read Order of the Stick, it lovingly shines the spotlight on dozens of ridiculous ones in 3E. It's a game, it's designed to be fun.

And marks aren't mind control. Well, except maybe when a Battlemind does it.
 

B.T.

First Post
What?!? You mean the game expects us to actually ROLEPLAY what some things do?!? Oh, heaven forbid!!!

You know... I don't seem to recall the game spelling out in detail what actually is happening when our characters specifically make a Saving Throw versus Petrification in editions past. It said the effect didn't affect us, and we actually had to "roleplay" and "describe" what our bodies were doing when the save occurred.

You know... for all the complaints people had about 4E supposedly taking out the roleplay of D&D... there seems to be a lot of complaints about it when it asks you to take a basic description and then flesh it out with it.
Cut the snark, bro. It's not needed. What I'm saying is that I prefer game mechanics where I don't have to justify what's going on. If the fluff says my character is doing something, the mechanics should match it. If the mechanics do something, I expect the fluff to explain what my character does. (And, again, I need good fluff.)

Another good example of this not working in 4e is a utility power for rogues. I forget the name, but the fluff is that you are flinging things from your pockets to create an area of difficult terrain. Now, that's cool and all, but are you telling me that you're carrying enough junk in your pockets to do that? Likewise, if you're using that ability, which items are scattered onto the ground? Do you lose access to them?

The standard reply is that you can fluff the power however you want, so the rogue might be knocking over carts in a city or somesuch. At which point, I've lost interest. Effects-based design needs to stop existing in RPGs. It is opposed to immersion. It is a constant reminder that you are playing a game. It is an awful system of mechanical design.
 
Last edited:

Like a lot of things in 4e, the way the mechanics work is somewhat different to how they are occasionally "interpreted". And this is a problem that I think a closer meshing of fluff and mechanics could possibly solve. I'm not talking gurps or fastidious simulation here, just a walking along the believability path with the occasional nod of the head towards Pythagorus and others here and there along the way.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

The thing is, I think 4E does walk along the believability path fairly well IMO. While it does do some things unrealistically, I'm fine with that because it makes the game easier to run/more fun to play.

To me, us talking about what realistic combat/midevil society/magic/whatever is like talking about gourmet cooking. We may think we know what we're talking about but it really is quite different from what we would think it would be.

After all, when Bobby Flay turns a bunch of random ingredients to heaven on a plate, I don't say that's unrealistic because I can't do the same thing with my ingredients or because I never seen a similar dish before. For one, Bobby Flay is a professional (please agree with me on this for the sake of not derailing the topic :p) chef who does food all the freakin' time and would use cooking techniques/ideas that I would never think off. Also, cooking on TV requires that stuff gets edited out so that the show will fit in an half hour/hour long time slot. It's realistic for chefs to wash their hands all the freakin' time but do you really want to waste 3 minutes of national TV time to show someone washing their hands?

While you (and I) may be fine understanding why moving diagonally along a square grid would cost 1.5 squares of movement, it seems there are a lot of people who can't grasp that concept. While I (and you) have excellent analytical abilities, not everyone is blessed with our level of skills :p

Of course, I don't think I'm responding to you so much as I'm using your post as a springboard to talk about something else....
 

Rhenny

Adventurer
You know... I don't seem to recall the game spelling out in detail what actually is happening when our characters specifically make a Saving Throw versus Petrification in editions past. It said the effect didn't affect us, and we actually had to "roleplay" and "describe" what our bodies were doing when the save occurred.

I think this is a good example of what the original poster means by having a mechanic that at least mimics what's happening to the PC. With active saves, it feels as if your PC is trying to fight off some effect. It makes sense. It's also exciting.
 

B.T.

First Post
I think this is a good example of what the original poster means by having a mechanic that at least mimics what's happening to the PC. With active saves, it feels as if your PC is trying to fight off some effect. It makes sense. It's also exciting.
Correct. In older editions, when I make a saving throw vs. magic, my character is trying to defend himself (reactively) from a magical spell. In 3e, when my character makes a Reflex saving throw, he is trying to get out of the way of something trying to do him harm. In 4e, when an enemy attacks my Will defense, he is trying to mess with my head. In 4e, when my character makes a saving throw, he is attempting to overcome a lingering effect.

All those things make sense from an in-character perspective and I can describe in the game world what is going on. They are not dissociated (as Justin Alexander would say).
 

pemerton

Legend
What is that mark? Well time in the game isn't done in a series of stop and go motions like some weird play, it's continuous.

That mark is the fighter ATTACKING YOU. And if you don't pay attention to the guy whose attacking you, he gets a few extra hits in.
This is good stuff. The turn-based initiative system is an abstraction. Out-of-turn actions, including OAs (which fighters are especially good at) and the challenge-generated interrupts, are part of the mechanical apparatus for preventing the abstraction generating absurd results.

Sometimes marks also just work at the metagame level. They're a device that makes it more likely that the fighter will be at the centre of the fray. Similar to the paladin's Valiant Strike power (which gives a bonus to hit equal to the number of adjacent enemies): a players whose PC has that power is more likely to play the PC as valiantly surrounded by foes, because there is a mechanical incentive to do so.

D&D has always used metagame contrivances to reinforce class role and flavour (eg the prohibitions on swords and armour for wizards), although 3E reduced this noticeably compared to earlier editions. 4e is a return to earlier editions in this respect, although it uses new mecanical devices to achieve that result.

Write the fluff first and then write mechanics that simulate what's going on.

Ultimately, 5e needs to merge the smoother mechanical resolution process of 4e with the "simulationism" of 3e.

Thoughts?
Personally, I quite like 4e's approach. I think "fortune in the middle" resolution - roll dice first, narrate events second - can have some advantages for introducing new complications into the narrative without bogging the game down mechanically, and while keeping the odds of success and failure more-or-less known and balanced. It does raise interesting issues about fictional positioning - how does the narration of what happened in the course of action resolution than feed into subsequent action resolution - but I think these can be handled. The most obvious way is by having the NPCs/monsters in a situation respond appropriately and interestingly to whatever narration was used to explain the action resolution. Make the colour count!

I don't seem to recall the game spelling out in detail what actually is happening when our characters specifically make a Saving Throw versus Petrification in editions past. It said the effect didn't affect us, and we actually had to "roleplay" and "describe" what our bodies were doing when the save occurred.
In older editions, when I make a saving throw vs. magic, my character is trying to defend himself (reactively) from a magical spell. In 3e, when my character makes a Reflex saving throw, he is trying to get out of the way of something trying to do him harm.
What DEFCON 1 says is true of AD&D (or 1st ed, at least). Gygax explains it in the DMG: roll the save, and if it is successful than narrate something around it that makes sense. This explains why even the fighter chained to the rockface is entitled to a save vs Dragon Breath - perhaps s/he finds a niche in the rock at the last minute, or a chain breaks, or whatever. (And a chain breaking can be narrated even if the fighter earlier failed a bend bars attempt in respect of it!)

What B.T. says about saves is true of 3E, however. 3E changed many aspects of the game, and probably has the least "fortune in the middle" of any edition of D&D - even hit points seem to be much more "meat"-ified in 3E than in earlier editions, or in 4e.

4E didn't remove the roleplay from D&D but it did throw it into the back seat and tell it to shut up.
Yeah, "rewriting this power so it makes sense" is not "roleplaying" in my eyes. It's game design.
One part of playing an RPG, for some players at least, is narrating fiction around action resolution. It's true that 3E has less of this than any other edition of D&D, and games like Rolemaster or Runequest have less in turn than 3E, but there are plenty of other well-know RPGs that aren't so spartan in this respect: The Dying Earth, HeroWars/Quest, Burning Wheel, etc. And I don't think it's fair to describe it as "rewriting powers so that they make sense" - at least, not for those who enjoy fortune-in-the-middle resolution. It's narrating the events of the fiction within a constraint provided by the mechanical resolution system.

It was part of the AD&D saving throw mechanic, and it remains part of the hit point mechanic in all editions: it is not possible to narrate what a successful attack for 8 hp means until you know who was hit, how many hit points they started with, and therefore how many they end up with (I think even the biggest "hp are meat" proponent would accept that this is so). 4e just takes it into more areas of the game.

Unless[/i] the Paladin uses his Divine Challange. That, for some reason, wipes the Fighters mark and now it IS safe to ignore the Fighter in combat. Why?

<snip>

You can't roleplay your way out of that
Well, you can. "I'm leaving it for you to handle." Not only is it possible, but it happens routinely at my game table.

You know where meta-system mechanics have a place? Narrative systems where you want the players to be able to grab the wheel from the GM for a moment. Or 'Fate point' mechanics to allow gritty dangerous worlds where you don't need to roll a new PC every week.

But at the round-to-round tactical level? That crap needs to go.
This is something on which opinions differ. D&D has always made the metagame part of round-to-round tactical decision-making, via its hit point mechanics. In AD&D it was also part of the saving throw mecanic. 4e just extends that to "active" as well as "passive" elements of action resolution.

Another good example of this not working in 4e is a utility power for rogues. I forget the name, but the fluff is that you are flinging things from your pockets to create an area of difficult terrain. Now, that's cool and all, but are you telling me that you're carrying enough junk in your pockets to do that? Likewise, if you're using that ability, which items are scattered onto the ground? Do you lose access to them?

The standard reply is that you can fluff the power however you want, so the rogue might be knocking over carts in a city or somesuch. At which point, I've lost interest.
Fair enough. But this is exactly how 3E treats the wizard's spell components pouch. (In AD&D, you actually had to track your componenent usage.) And some systems - including d20 modern, I think - use abstracted wealth rules. Other systems - The Dying Earth, and OGL Conan - have rules about PCs losing access to accrued wealth between sessions (they are deemed to have spent or lost it). In Burning Wheel you role a d6 every time you use a toolkit, and on a roll of 1 it is depleted.

To put it another way: detailed item tracking isn't the only way to handle things, and hasn't been an essential part of D&D since the 3E-era (ie the above mentioned spell component pouches and rogue powers).

when each action is conflated into a "macro" and players use the shorthand to say, "I'll attack with Tide of Iron," or "I mark my foe," or "I use Sly Flourish," combats become mechanical, often repetitive and less interesting.
This raises an interesting, and in my view slightly orthogonal, issue.

Given my own interests and prejudices, I'm inclined to frame it this way: is the players' main contribution to interesting action resolution their impact on colour, or their impact on situation? I agree that 4e's power usage can reduce colour. Some description becomes compressed. But 4e powers give players - and especially martial players - a lot of influence over the situation - in particular via forced movement and condition infliction. This is where the interest is to be found. (And it's true that in this particular respect, 4e martial PCs become more like traditional D&D spell-user, who have always had "macro labelled" abilities ("I fireball the orcs") which give them a high degree of influence over the ingame situation.)

If switching systems is too much of a pain, but adding house rules isn't, then go buy the Codex Martailis, produced by our very own Galloglaich! It's the only melee weapons RPG combat system designed by a person who actually studies and practices melee combat!
Hmm. I thought that Jake Norwood made the same claim about The Riddle of Steel!
 

Remove ads

Top