Wow, people exist that actually believe this? This sentence is preposterous and defies every experience I've ever had with D&D.
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Why do all classes have to be balanced?
- Thread starter Derren
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Wow, people exist that actually believe this? This sentence is preposterous and defies every experience I've ever had with D&D.
In many level-based point buy systems (eg 3E's skills, Rolemaster, HARP, JC's (home?) system, etc) it is possible for a low-level PC to have a better bonus than many or most high level PCs.
It is ubiquitous in Rolemaster, for example, for high level characters to have negative skill bonuses (because, depending on edition, skils with 0 ranks are -25 or -30, and very few PCs will have (i) ranks in every skill, or (ii) stat bonuses of +20 or better to compensate for all those skills with zero ranks). And a fairly optimised first level character can have a bonus of up to +80. (To contrast, at 20th level, bonuses of up to +120, or even above +150 for weapon skills, where bonus items are easier to come by, are not uncommon.)
But that 1st level PC will probably have only one +80. Maybe two, if they are related skills and so able to share some bonus sources. And if they are in spheres of actitivty the other PCs care about, then they will be eclipsed by those PCs multiple bonuses of +90 and above. Whereas if they are in spheres of activity that the other PCs don't care about (wahoo!, I have +80 in seaborne navitagion and piloting through rocky shoals - too bad that the party is all living it up in a landlocked palace!) then how is that PC going to shine? Where is the opportunity going to come from.
But anyway, let's go through it:
I don't think it's just coincidence that the useful things I've identified that a 1st level PC might do are dealing with animals, plants, dead bodies and scouting. These are all exploration activities which a traditional party may not be good at, or at least not optimised for, and might benefit from having even a low level character perform. As I've said, though, I don't think this is going to involve shining.
The problem with the other stuff on the list is that it's either operational (foraging, healing, navigating, crafting, lugging), and 15th level PC parties have almost always already solved the operational aspects of the game - that's part of what being high level means, at least in D&D and similar games - or it's central to the conflicts that matter in play (secret knowledge, social) and a 1st level PC isn't going to be up to the job, anymore than the rest of the party was when they were 1st level.
It is ubiquitous in Rolemaster, for example, for high level characters to have negative skill bonuses (because, depending on edition, skils with 0 ranks are -25 or -30, and very few PCs will have (i) ranks in every skill, or (ii) stat bonuses of +20 or better to compensate for all those skills with zero ranks). And a fairly optimised first level character can have a bonus of up to +80. (To contrast, at 20th level, bonuses of up to +120, or even above +150 for weapon skills, where bonus items are easier to come by, are not uncommon.)
But that 1st level PC will probably have only one +80. Maybe two, if they are related skills and so able to share some bonus sources. And if they are in spheres of actitivty the other PCs care about, then they will be eclipsed by those PCs multiple bonuses of +90 and above. Whereas if they are in spheres of activity that the other PCs don't care about (wahoo!, I have +80 in seaborne navitagion and piloting through rocky shoals - too bad that the party is all living it up in a landlocked palace!) then how is that PC going to shine? Where is the opportunity going to come from.
This list looks like its a list of tasks from a bundle of skill descriptions - maybe those tasks with DCs that a 1st level PC in the system in question can be expected to meet.
But anyway, let's go through it:
*Gathering food quickly - I've never had a 15th level party need food to be gathered quickly - they buy it, create it, pull it out of Handy Haversacks, whatever;
*Navigating - I've never had a 15th level party get lost in natural environs (if in doubt they just fly up to get the lie of the land, or speak to a local nature spirit or the god of travel);
*Dealing with animals/plants (like gathering herbs) - I could perhaps see this coming into play, but would not really think of it as shining - if the 15th level PCs can't do this already, they probably don't care much about animals or plants;
*Knowledge about any number of topics (cities, nations, religion, undead, other planes, weather, and on and on) - in my experience, 15th level PCs tend to be very good at learning what they need to know (via research, past explorations, spells, skills, interrogations, etc), and if there is a secret they need that they haven't uncovered yet, it's not going to be something that a 1st level scholar would know;
*Social aspects (including leadership, negotiation, intimidation, lying, detecting the truth, etc.) - again in my experience, the social encounters that pose a challenge to 15th level PCs are not ones that a 1st level bard can handle - in my current game one of the PCs has an NPC herald who is a 10th level minion (so in some sense low level), but that NPC doesn't shine - he provides +2 bonuses to appropriate social checks, adds colour, and is the butt of jokes;
*Patching wounds, treating diseases, poisons, or infections, removing status effects, lessening penalties (from fatigue, etc.), etc - normally I think 15th level PCs handle this via magic rather than relying on a 1st level Heal skill check;
*Discovering what was used to kill a creature, scouting ahead - these are potentially useful, and could save the need to deploy diviniation magic, but again I am not sure I would call discovering what was used to kill a creature "shining" (in my experience, it is a question that is relevant no more than once every 6 or more session), and as [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] noted upthread the 1st level scout who is scouting Mordor or the Elemental Chaos may not last long;
*Keeping an eye out for things, an extra guy on shift during the night - as I said above, I don't think this adds very much, and it is hardly shining;
*Crafting goods for the PCs, or making money for them on the side by selling it - I don't think being the labour in the other PCs' factory is shining, and in at least some assumed fantasy economies (at least any typical D&D one) is not going to contribute any signficant income;
*Lugging around heavy stuff - I've never found this to be an issue for 15th level PCs, and in any event being a porter is not shining, in my view.
*Navigating - I've never had a 15th level party get lost in natural environs (if in doubt they just fly up to get the lie of the land, or speak to a local nature spirit or the god of travel);
*Dealing with animals/plants (like gathering herbs) - I could perhaps see this coming into play, but would not really think of it as shining - if the 15th level PCs can't do this already, they probably don't care much about animals or plants;
*Knowledge about any number of topics (cities, nations, religion, undead, other planes, weather, and on and on) - in my experience, 15th level PCs tend to be very good at learning what they need to know (via research, past explorations, spells, skills, interrogations, etc), and if there is a secret they need that they haven't uncovered yet, it's not going to be something that a 1st level scholar would know;
*Social aspects (including leadership, negotiation, intimidation, lying, detecting the truth, etc.) - again in my experience, the social encounters that pose a challenge to 15th level PCs are not ones that a 1st level bard can handle - in my current game one of the PCs has an NPC herald who is a 10th level minion (so in some sense low level), but that NPC doesn't shine - he provides +2 bonuses to appropriate social checks, adds colour, and is the butt of jokes;
*Patching wounds, treating diseases, poisons, or infections, removing status effects, lessening penalties (from fatigue, etc.), etc - normally I think 15th level PCs handle this via magic rather than relying on a 1st level Heal skill check;
*Discovering what was used to kill a creature, scouting ahead - these are potentially useful, and could save the need to deploy diviniation magic, but again I am not sure I would call discovering what was used to kill a creature "shining" (in my experience, it is a question that is relevant no more than once every 6 or more session), and as [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] noted upthread the 1st level scout who is scouting Mordor or the Elemental Chaos may not last long;
*Keeping an eye out for things, an extra guy on shift during the night - as I said above, I don't think this adds very much, and it is hardly shining;
*Crafting goods for the PCs, or making money for them on the side by selling it - I don't think being the labour in the other PCs' factory is shining, and in at least some assumed fantasy economies (at least any typical D&D one) is not going to contribute any signficant income;
*Lugging around heavy stuff - I've never found this to be an issue for 15th level PCs, and in any event being a porter is not shining, in my view.
I don't think it's just coincidence that the useful things I've identified that a 1st level PC might do are dealing with animals, plants, dead bodies and scouting. These are all exploration activities which a traditional party may not be good at, or at least not optimised for, and might benefit from having even a low level character perform. As I've said, though, I don't think this is going to involve shining.
The problem with the other stuff on the list is that it's either operational (foraging, healing, navigating, crafting, lugging), and 15th level PC parties have almost always already solved the operational aspects of the game - that's part of what being high level means, at least in D&D and similar games - or it's central to the conflicts that matter in play (secret knowledge, social) and a 1st level PC isn't going to be up to the job, anymore than the rest of the party was when they were 1st level.
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I think that what [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] had in mind that the 15th level party is likely to be adventuring in Mordor, the Elemental Chaos, or some similarly inhospitable location, and that the 1st level PC will not last very long in such a place.
Here is an RPG design comment on Hawkeye:
I can't think of a single coherent Narrativist game text in which balance as a term is invoked as a design or play feature, nor any particular instance of play I've been involved in which brought the issue up. But I'm pretty sure that it's a protagonism issue.
"Balance" might be relevant as a measure of character screen time, or perhaps weight of screen time rather than absolute length. This is not solely the effectiveness-issue which confuses everyone. Comics fans will recognize that Hawkeye is just as significant as Thor, as a member of the Avengers, or even more so. In game terms, this is a Character Components issue: Hawkeye would have a high Metagame component whereas Thor would have a higher Effectiveness component.
"Balance" might be relevant as a measure of character screen time, or perhaps weight of screen time rather than absolute length. This is not solely the effectiveness-issue which confuses everyone. Comics fans will recognize that Hawkeye is just as significant as Thor, as a member of the Avengers, or even more so. In game terms, this is a Character Components issue: Hawkeye would have a high Metagame component whereas Thor would have a higher Effectiveness component.
Question: is that metagame component able to be achieved simply via social contract and gentlemen's agreement, or does it have to be reduced to mechanics? I understand that the Buffy game takes the "reduce to mechanics" approach to make sure it's a lock. In my view, 4e martial powers should also be seen as a "reduce to mechanics" way of locking in martial PCs metagame weight-of-screentime.
According to the recent Legends and Lore columns, it seems that WotC aren't going metagame with martial, but instead tackling effectiveness head on - high-level fighters and rogues will have mythic levels of effectiveness comparable to those of high level wizards.
Doug McCrae
Legend
I can see how a high level party could benefit significantly by the addition of a much lower level character, if the newcomer has important skills or abilities that the party doesn't possess.
A party of 15th level combat-oriented types such as a fighter, barbarian and monk could benefit from a 1st level bard as the 'party face', researcher, and to operate wands of cure light wounds, assuming it was 3e.
Three 23rd level fighters could be helped a lot by an 8th level cleric, druid or wizard.
However I feel that these examples speak more to the weaknesses of non-casters compared to casters, and, in fact, highlight the need for balance. A 1st level fighter would be useless to a 15th level party composed of the 'big three' casters.
Replicating the superhero trope of teams with wildly divergent power levels - Green Lantern and Green Arrow, Superman and Batman, (and Angel Summoner and the BMX Bandit!) is something I've considered attempting as a GM but never actually tried. One could take advantage of the important weaknesses of the high power characters - Green Lantern can't affect anything coloured yellow (yes, really) and Superman is weakened by kryptonite or red sun radiation. You could do something like this in D&D with antimagic zones and magic resistance.
A party of 15th level combat-oriented types such as a fighter, barbarian and monk could benefit from a 1st level bard as the 'party face', researcher, and to operate wands of cure light wounds, assuming it was 3e.
Three 23rd level fighters could be helped a lot by an 8th level cleric, druid or wizard.
However I feel that these examples speak more to the weaknesses of non-casters compared to casters, and, in fact, highlight the need for balance. A 1st level fighter would be useless to a 15th level party composed of the 'big three' casters.
Replicating the superhero trope of teams with wildly divergent power levels - Green Lantern and Green Arrow, Superman and Batman, (and Angel Summoner and the BMX Bandit!) is something I've considered attempting as a GM but never actually tried. One could take advantage of the important weaknesses of the high power characters - Green Lantern can't affect anything coloured yellow (yes, really) and Superman is weakened by kryptonite or red sun radiation. You could do something like this in D&D with antimagic zones and magic resistance.
Can you do that all the time? Can every episode of the comic/skit/story/game be set in that one particular situation where the powerhouse isn't going to be effective? And keep it plausible, rather than being an obvious plot device to make one person feel useful? I'd suggest that doing so would be hard, and incidentally ends up shifting the burden of uselessness rather than alleviating it.
Of course there have been games that attempted this. Ars Magica, of course, being specifically written around this, acknowledging it, and encouraging torupe play. Buffy/Angel using Unisystem, with explicit metagame resources granted to the less powerful characters to compensate for their other weaknesses. I suspect that a game that's as conservative in it's design principles as D&DN seems intended to be is unlikely to implement many innovations along these lines.
Neonchameleon
Legend
Fine. If you think it's preposterous, show how it's preposterous. Show how, with just the abilities from his class (which are, after all, what separates him from a commoner) a level 15 Fighter is more useful than a choice of D3+1 Celestial (or fiendish) Dire Tigers, D4+2 Anklyosauri, or D4+2 Bralani Azata. What do you think he's actually contributing to the party? Damage? He's not doing the damage of three pouncing Celestial Dire Tigers, all at +14 damage for smite. Soak? He doesn't have the area coverage or total hit points of a herd of bison, never mind a herd of anklyosauri. Even the Dire Tigers each have 133 HP (allowing for Augment Summons).
And do so without reference to spells cast on him please. Those are resources granted to him by other party members in order to make him relevant. Also magic items - most of them will be the proceeds from adventuring, which could be split with the commoner instead - or just go to the more useful people. Ignore them please.
Hussar
Legend
JC said:
What kind of commoners are they that are operating in a region where 15th level parties are required to deal with whatever issue is coming up.
As Pemerton points out, a 15th level party is adventuring in Llolth's demi-plane, they're invading the Abyss, they're assaulting the City of Brass. They are not poncing about the English countryside.
This can work. However, the way to make it work tends to make people really, really antsy. You balance Black Widow against Thor by giving Black Widow's player all sorts of meta-game authority and power. The Buffy The Vampire Slayer RPG works exactly like this. The Slayer has all sorts of direct, in game power. The Scoobies don't. But, the Scoobies have metagame power controlled by their player to tell the DM, "No, sorry, the vampire didn't actually just pull my arm off, he just knocked me out, regardless of what the dice just told you".
It works great. But, it's a VERY different game.
Everyone's definition of "Shine" is different and I don't think a few posters here quite understand that.
Personally, I don't always expect or want to be in the spotlight. As long as I'm having fun then I don't care. A concept I have for my character maybe one in which the PC is rarely seen and rarely takes the stage.
In every edition of D&D a PC has always had something that they can do. Unless you, the player, purposely stand there and do nothing you will always contribute to the group.
Now if there is a certain amount of things that I need to do in order to be considered useful then I would like those to be listed right now.
Personally, I don't always expect or want to be in the spotlight. As long as I'm having fun then I don't care. A concept I have for my character maybe one in which the PC is rarely seen and rarely takes the stage.
In every edition of D&D a PC has always had something that they can do. Unless you, the player, purposely stand there and do nothing you will always contribute to the group.
Now if there is a certain amount of things that I need to do in order to be considered useful then I would like those to be listed right now.
Neonchameleon
Legend
I'd argue the case there on two counts.
First, Iron Man's a flying tankmage. He might not be able to take Hulk or Thor in a beatdown but he has the mobility of tactical flight and a far more flexible powerset than "Hit really hard" or "Hit pretty hard with some lightning". I'd definitely put him in the tier with Hulk and Thor.
Second there's the Widow. Yes, she's no use in a straight up fight by comparison. But she's a rogue rather than a fighter. I'd certainly put her power level as up there with Cap - she's the stealthy one, and the one with the face skills. And in a modern game the one spending useful plot points. Hawkeye I'd put at Hireling/Companion Character level rather than full blown PC.
I just want to post a little something that I feel the designers of 3rd edition/Pathfinder had intended for the games to turn out.
DM: "Okay guys I am going to run X campaign," "Sound Good?"
Bobby: "That's cool with me!" "I think I would like to play a cleric." "Everyone fine with me playing a Cleric?"
Tommy: "Sure Bobby, that would be great!" "I think I will play a rogue so the the roguish type stuff will be covered." "Everyone okay with that?"
Sammy: "Not a bother Tommy." "I think I am going to play a Wizard so our spellcaster will be covered." "Everyone okay with that?"
Etc...Etc....Etc....
This is how we handle games in our group. If a DM is going to propose a game then we talk amongst ourselves about who is going to play what class. Now there is nothing wrong with having two of the same class in the party at all and at times it does happen but nobody tries to out do anyone else. We work as a team and we try and pick classes that would work great together and sometimes each of us may have a concept that we are interested in playing so the classes kind of turn out all funky but that's okay because it's about the fun and not the win.
DM: "Okay guys I am going to run X campaign," "Sound Good?"
Bobby: "That's cool with me!" "I think I would like to play a cleric." "Everyone fine with me playing a Cleric?"
Tommy: "Sure Bobby, that would be great!" "I think I will play a rogue so the the roguish type stuff will be covered." "Everyone okay with that?"
Sammy: "Not a bother Tommy." "I think I am going to play a Wizard so our spellcaster will be covered." "Everyone okay with that?"
Etc...Etc....Etc....
This is how we handle games in our group. If a DM is going to propose a game then we talk amongst ourselves about who is going to play what class. Now there is nothing wrong with having two of the same class in the party at all and at times it does happen but nobody tries to out do anyone else. We work as a team and we try and pick classes that would work great together and sometimes each of us may have a concept that we are interested in playing so the classes kind of turn out all funky but that's okay because it's about the fun and not the win.
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