Why do all classes have to be balanced?

[JamesonCourage]

What kind of commoners are they that are operating in a region where 15th level parties are required to deal with whatever issue is coming up.

As Pemerton points out, a 15th level party is adventuring in Llolth's demi-plane, they're invading the Abyss, they're assaulting the City of Brass. They are not poncing about the English countryside.

My hit die 15s (current party) are walking around a continent mostly inhabited by hit die 4s. They're trying to deal with big threats, whether that be political intrigue, trying to prevent war while nations build up armies, stop events from spiraling out of control on the millennial turn (when events will really go bad unless stopped), stop large groups of bandits, rescuing slaves from working in mines, obtaining artifacts from people who would use them for ill ends, and the like.

There is plenty for them to do when they're surrounded by people of much lower hit die. They frequently stop in cities. They are not in a demi-plane, or invading hell, or the like. And there's still plenty for them to do. As always, play what you like

But that 1st level PC will probably have only one +80. Maybe two, if they are related skills and so able to share some bonus sources.

I just made a quick hit die 1 character in my RPG system (he's gone through character creation, with no points into the next hit die). Something to keep in mind: I created him largely with the intent of contributing to a higher hit die party, though he'd definitely be useful to a party his own hit die.

The character can consistently get +5 to the following skills: Appraise, Comprehension, Forgery, Heal, Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Nobility), and Survival. He can always take a 10, even when threatened or distracted, giving him a 15. Getting a 15 on a skill is considered "competent professional" level in the field (10 is "everyday task" and 20 is "skilled professional"). This means that the character can do the following:

1) Appraise:

• Can make a living as an appraiser
• find out if there's any work in a variety of fields in a city/town
• assess the price of an object
• identify properties of an object
• learn the history of an object
• and see through forgeries.

2) Comprehension:

• Can perform complex math or assist skill checks if math is heavily involved
• decipher codes or magical scripts
• determine the intent of what someone is trying to communicate (via pantomiming, etc.)
• write especially eloquently to give a bonus on other skill checks
• alter words on paper to change its meaning
• and gain bonuses to solving riddles or puzzles (and the character has an 18 in Intelligence and Wisdom to help with that).

3) Forgery:

• Can create fake documents to get achieve a variety of effects
• see if documents are real or fake
• or create fake versions of simple objects (DC 12 or less)

4) Heal:

• Make a living as a healer
• determine the cause of what killed a creature (what kind of weapon was used, what disease, etc.)
• check creatures to see if they're alive or dead
• determine if someone will get better or worse with their current sickness
• stabilize someone without rolling
• determine properties about a wound (weapon used or damage type, Knowledge check for species that caused it; damage bonus of the attacker; attacker's relevant attribute score (Strength, Dexterity, etc.) or base attack; the attacker's size, and whether it was a quadruped or bipedal and its position relative to the victim; if a natural special attack was used (poison or disease) or a supernatural attack was used (spell-like ability, acid, etc.)
• can perform long-term care to heal patients faster
• as a move action, may negate penalties to attack, attribute damage, blinded, deafened, entangled, exhausted, fatigued, flat-footed, prone, or shaken
• as a standard action, can give another saving throw (even if there isn't one normally) with a bonus against action loss, emotional disturbance, fascination, fatigue, fear, flat-footed, paralysis, prone, sense deprivation, sickness, or speed loss
• can bring a creature back to life if it died one round ago and it did not die to a weapon blow
• restore temporary hit points
• identify the effect of a blow on the hit chart
• treat diseases, poisons, infections, and the like
• and wake a creature up, including from unconsciousness (such as a knockout blow)

5) Knowledge (geography/history/nature/nobility):

• without having to roll, can know information up to competent professional level about lands, terrain, climate, people
• without having to roll, can know information up to competent professional level about royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities
• without having to roll, can know information up to competent professional level about animals, plants, seasons and cycles, weather
• without having to roll, can know information up to competent professional level about lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities
• may research things to give a bonus to related fields (geography can give a bonus to Assess, Balance, Climb, Comprehension, Empathy, Forgery, Hide, Jump, Land, Listen, Move Silently, Negotiation, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, or Survival, and it's one of four uses)

6) Survival:

• Can get along in the wild at full speed unless conditions are bad or can feed himself and others at full speed if conditions are good
• predict the weather up to 24 hours out
• gain a bonus on Constitution checks against weather
• gain a sense of where you are in a city, or how to get around in it if you're slightly familiar with it
• may try to confuse people following via trails by leading them to a different area
• may cover tracks so it's harder to follow you
• may gather a natural antidote to give a bonus to Fortitude saves against poison
• may survive on the streets of a city without needing to roll
• may gather alchemical components, antitoxins, cooking ingredients, healing herbs, and nourishing plants that take up little space but provide great nourishment

Side note: The character gets +3 to Assess, Concentration, Empathy, Knowledge (architecture), and Knowledge (local), but can't take a 10 when threatened or distracted. So he might help on these fronts, but there's no guarantee.

This list looks like its a list of tasks from a bundle of skill descriptions - maybe those tasks with DCs that a 1st level PC in the system in question can be expected to meet.

I did indeed name things that a hit die 1 creature could conceivably do well.

*Gathering food quickly - I've never had a 15th level party need food to be gathered quickly - they buy it, create it, pull it out of Handy Haversacks, whatever;​

I have. I've had parties slow down to half speed to travel to gather their own food, and when a new PC or NPC is introduced that bypasses this (survivalist, magician, etc.), they like the speed boost. Definitely appreciated.

*Navigating - I've never had a 15th level party get lost in natural environs (if in doubt they just fly up to get the lie of the land, or speak to a local nature spirit or the god of travel);​

I've yet to see it happen, but it can. I've seen them arrive late, or fatigued, though. Those can be avoided with good navigation. Oh, and I have seen them without maps and nobody in the relevant skill to direct them.

*Dealing with animals/plants (like gathering herbs) - I could perhaps see this coming into play, but would not really think of it as shining - if the 15th level PCs can't do this already, they probably don't care much about animals or plants;​

"Shining" is not defined by what the other individual PCs care about. If none of the PCs are invested in Perform or social skills, but a PC goes out and gathers a group of people for drinks later that night where he then puts on a great performance before chatting up the locals, he can most certainly shine still. If a PC has stealth skills where nobody else does, he can shine by sneaking around, listening in, etc. The same holds true for dealing with plants/animals and gathering herbs.

*Knowledge about any number of topics (cities, nations, religion, undead, other planes, weather, and on and on) - in my experience, 15th level PCs tend to be very good at learning what they need to know (via research, past explorations, spells, skills, interrogations, etc), and if there is a secret they need that they haven't uncovered yet, it's not going to be something that a 1st level scholar would know;​

Our worlds are very, very different, then. My PCs frequently visit sages, which might take days (if they need to travel to a city with a sage), and also lowers the chance of whatever they're doing be kept quiet (if that applies to this task). Having the information on-hand with someone you trust has been very valuable, in my opinion.

*Social aspects (including leadership, negotiation, intimidation, lying, detecting the truth, etc.) - again in my experience, the social encounters that pose a challenge to 15th level PCs are not ones that a 1st level bard can handle - in my current game one of the PCs has an NPC herald who is a 10th level minion (so in some sense low level), but that NPC doesn't shine - he provides +2 bonuses to appropriate social checks, adds colour, and is the butt of jokes;​

Sounds like he's just aiding, rather than talking. A +5 on social skills is good enough to pick up some decent stuff, or lie your way past some thugs or enforcers, for example. It's definitely not going to get you past the royal guard (unless you roll well), but if no other PC has social skills, this skill set is extremely valuable.

*Patching wounds, treating diseases, poisons, or infections, removing status effects, lessening penalties (from fatigue, etc.), etc - normally I think 15th level PCs handle this via magic rather than relying on a 1st level Heal skill check;​

This depends on what magic can cover, admittedly. Magic in my RPG doesn't really handle things like status effects or temporary hit points, and it only augments the skill use of treating poisons/diseases/infections and the like. It does not lessen penalties, you can't diagnose wounds with it (to see which wound to heal first), and it's shaky on whether or not you'll be able to divine what killed someone, etc.

*Discovering what was used to kill a creature, scouting ahead - these are potentially useful, and could save the need to deploy diviniation magic, but again I am not sure I would call discovering what was used to kill a creature "shining" (in my experience, it is a question that is relevant no more than once every 6 or more session), and as [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] noted upthread the 1st level scout who is scouting Mordor or the Elemental Chaos may not last long;​

Yes, it depends on what you're scouting, but if the party needs a scout and has nobody with the relevant skills, they can most definitely shine. Scouting, discovering what was used to kill a creature, etc. are useful tools in investigation prior to planning.

*Keeping an eye out for things, an extra guy on shift during the night - as I said above, I don't think this adds very much, and it is hardly shining;​

True, but this speaks to the "meaningfully contribute" aspect as well. Admittedly less useful than other uses named above.

*Crafting goods for the PCs, or making money for them on the side by selling it - I don't think being the labour in the other PCs' factory is shining, and in at least some assumed fantasy economies (at least any typical D&D one) is not going to contribute any signficant income;​

This really depends. I could make a hit die 1 character who could make mastercraft goods (+3 mundane bonus to things) in the time and money it'd take to make regular goods, though he'd be limited to a couple crafts and would have nothing else really going for him. But, crafting mastercraft goods can definitely lead to shining in my system (as it's about the best you can do), and can make good money (especially if he's reduced the cost/time).

*Lugging around heavy stuff - I've never found this to be an issue for 15th level PCs, and in any event being a porter is not shining, in my view.​

I've seen it an issue for my PCs, and it's not shining. It's hardly meaningfully contributing. Thus my "And that's not talking about" preface.

I don't think it's just coincidence that the useful things I've identified that a 1st level PC might do are dealing with animals, plants, dead bodies and scouting. These are all exploration activities which a traditional party may not be good at, or at least not optimised for, and might benefit from having even a low level character perform. As I've said, though, I don't think this is going to involve shining.

My experience (or my terminology) is just different from yours. I've seen characters like the one at the top of this post shine. And, with how broad the character's skill set is, he can often shine much more often than someone who purely invests in combat (with a few physical side skills).

The problem with the other stuff on the list is that it's either operational (foraging, healing, navigating, crafting, lugging), and 15th level PC parties have almost always already solved the operational aspects of the game - that's part of what being high level means, at least in D&D and similar games - or it's central to the conflicts that matter in play (secret knowledge, social) and a 1st level PC isn't going to be up to the job, anymore than the rest of the party was when they were 1st level.

Depends on the system, because it's sure not true in my system. That group of 15th hit die PCs may be able to get along in the wild, as long as the season isn't bad, the terrain isn't bad, and they're willing to go half-speed. Bring in a guy who can fix those things and they appreciate his contribute immensely.

Does D&D do these things? Well, in some small ways in 3.X, and probably not in 4e (with the ½ level bonus). I'm not sure about pre-3.X, but I'd suspect that they'd bring mostly superficial things mechanically (another guy to think at the table and help problem solve, someone to die to a trap, maybe someone to use a single spell). In my RPG, however, a hit die 1 can meaningfully contribute, and can most certainly shine in a party of hit die 15s.

And, the players I asked last night about it (without giving them the context of this thread or even this site) agreed with me (my question was "do you think a hit die 1 can meaningfully contribute or shine in a party of hit die 15s?" When I got a "yes" from both of them [one considered longer than the other], I asked "how?" and got some answers, like socially, heal, survival, appraise, etc.). As far as D&D has gone historically? Maybe not tons (though I disagree with the "always dead weight" comment).

But, theoretically, can a level 1 regularly meaningfully contribute mechanically or shine in a level 15 party? Oh, most certainly. Certainly. As always, play what you like

 

[Arlough]

Do characters need to be equals? No. Characters do need a chance to shine, however. Casters can switch-hit when needed, but shouldn't be doing it when it steps on the toes of other characters.

The Avengers movie is a great example of 6 wildly different power leveled "PCs" shining in an awesome session.

Hulk & Thor > Iron Man > Cap > Black Widow & Hawk Eye... but it doesn't matter. They all get to do their thing, and its as a team that they kick the most tail.

More than anything, that is the author's narrative control that makes them all shine. Realistically, Captain America and Black Widow should, together, be able to engage and hold off one moderate threat, Iron Man another, while the Hulk engages many moderate threats and Thor manages the BBEG.

Edit: I forgot Hawkeye, like most people will.
Hawkeye can either engage with one moderate threat that isn't focused on fast or ranged, or possibly up to 10 low end threats (minions), given his ranged abilities. Still, I don't think he would be able to nullify these threats and go help the others, he could only engage them preventing the small frys from mucking up the important battle.

I can see how a high level party could benefit significantly by the addition of a much lower level character, if the newcomer has important skills or abilities that the party doesn't possess.

A party of 15th level combat-oriented types such as a fighter, barbarian and monk could benefit from a 1st level bard as the 'party face', researcher, and to operate wands of cure light wounds, assuming it was 3e.

Three 23rd level fighters could be helped a lot by an 8th level cleric, druid or wizard.

However I feel that these examples speak more to the weaknesses of non-casters compared to casters, and, in fact, highlight the need for balance. A 1st level fighter would be useless to a 15th level party composed of the 'big three' casters.

Replicating the superhero trope of teams with wildly divergent power levels - Green Lantern and Green Arrow, Superman and Batman, (and Angel Summoner and the BMX Bandit!) is something I've considered attempting as a GM but never actually tried. One could take advantage of the important weaknesses of the high power characters - Green Lantern can't affect anything coloured yellow (yes, really) and Superman is weakened by kryptonite or red sun radiation. You could do something like this in D&D with antimagic zones and magic resistance.

Green Lantern also has the weakness of being not that imaginative or bright.
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Imagine if the Batman had that ring. Oh wait...
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Green Arrow really is just a trick shot.
Batman has the weakness of being quite literally mad, as well as operating outside of his power class frequently.
And Superman's weakness is having ever escalating enemies because he is as much a god as Thor.
That and a rare element from a single planet light years away that blew up less than a century ago is somehow available to every criminal on the planet with the wherewithal to buy shoulder fired RPGs. You'd think Krypton was actually a blown up by a shaped charge designed to send it through a wormhole directly to earth given how common it is on the planet and how quickly the rocks got here.

Can you do that all the time? Can every episode of the comic/skit/story/game be set in that one particular situation where the powerhouse isn't going to be effective? And keep it plausible, rather than being an obvious plot device to make one person feel useful? I'd suggest that doing so would be hard, and incidentally ends up shifting the burden of uselessness rather than alleviating it.

Of course there have been games that attempted this. Ars Magica, of course, being specifically written around this, acknowledging it, and encouraging torupe play. Buffy/Angel using Unisystem, with explicit metagame resources granted to the less powerful characters to compensate for their other weaknesses. I suspect that a game that's as conservative in it's design principles as D&DN seems intended to be is unlikely to implement many innovations along these lines.

Of course every episode can, because they must. Plot armor equalizes everybody. Also, it should be noted that each of these characters has their own comic where they operate at levels more closely tied to their abilities. Even the Batman rarely engages beings of a higher tier outside of crossover comics.

I would say that the only way you can have this large of a power gap and give everybody a reason to shine is by contrived circumstance where the more powerful characters are disabled for whatever reason and it is left up to the (comparative) plebs to take care of things.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Now if there is a certain amount of things that I need to do in order to be considered useful then I would like those to be listed right now.

Where the line is, I'm not sure, but I can give an example of an overpowered character in 3.5 D&D.

We were a three player 9th level party - wizard (me), cleric and multiclassed rogue/fighter/barbarian half-demon. A particular monster from MM3, a ragewalker, CR14, had given us a lot of trouble, beating us in two encounters, so I decided to make sure of it in our third meeting.

Ragewalkers possess many nasty abilities. Any being within 10 feet must make a DC28 will save or fly into a berserk rage, unable to cast spells or distinguish friend from foe. All projectiles such as arrows and sling stones are repelled, striking the attacker. They also have spell resistance 26.

I learned the fly spell, something I'd previously eschewed as I felt it was too powerful, to avoid the berserker effect. The cleric buffed us with protection from energy (to avoid its fire magic), and after that I just killed the ragewalker on my own using web, Evard's black tentacles, cloudkill and the orb spells from Complete Arcane. All of these are conjurations, so avoid spell resistance. The other party members would probably just have been a hindrance as they would've been overcome by the berserker rage and may have attacked one another.

That, to me, is too much power. A 9th level wizard shouldn't be able to basically solo a CR14 monster. Certainly not one with spell resistance 26.

 

[Crispy Critter]

Where the line is, I'm not sure, but I can give an example of an overpowered character in 3.5 D&D.

We were a three player 9th level party - wizard (me), cleric and multiclassed rogue/fighter/barbarian half-demon. A particular monster from MM3, a ragewalker, CR14, had given us a lot of trouble, beating us in two encounters, so I decided to make sure of it in our third meeting.

Ragewalkers possess many nasty abilities. Any being within 10 feet must make a DC28 will save or fly into a berserk rage, unable to cast spells or distinguish friend from foe. All projectiles such as arrows and sling stones are repelled, striking the attacker. They also have spell resistance 26.

I learned the fly spell, something I'd previously eschewed as I felt it was too powerful, to avoid the berserker effect. The cleric buffed us with protection from energy (to avoid its fire magic), and after that I just killed the ragewalker on my own using web, Evard's black tentacles, cloudkill and the orb spells from Complete Arcane. All of these are conjurations, so avoid spell resistance. The other party members would probably just have been a hindrance as they would've been overcome by the berserker rage and may have attacked one another.

That, to me, is too much power. A 9th level wizard shouldn't be able to basically solo a CR14 monster. Certainly not one with spell resistance 26.

So you had full knowledge of the creatures capabilities, were able to lure it out to the best advantage for you (I'm assuming outdoors where you could fly), you were buffed by the cleric to almost perfectly counter its energy effect and then prepared the best combination of spells to defeat the creature. I'm sorry but this corner case does not sound like a being overpowered issue to me.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

So you had full knowledge of the creatures capabilities, were able to lure it out to the best advantage for you (I'm assuming outdoors where you could fly), you were buffed by the cleric to almost perfectly counter its energy effect and then prepared the best combination of spells to defeat the creature. I'm sorry but this corner case does not sound like a being overpowered issue to me.

Exactly!

Sounds to me like it was a matter of being the right person at just the right time with the right amount of good dice rolls.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I'm sorry but this corner case does not sound like a being overpowered issue to me.

Yes, it was a corner case, I chose it because it was so clearly one-sided. Ryan's rog/fgtr/bar contributed absolutely nothing to the encounter, and John's cleric only one spell, though admittedly an important one.

However I don't think there was a single encounter in that whole campaign where Ryan's character dominated in the way my PC did versus the ragewalker. His PC felt significantly underpowered, imo, compared to the two casters. All of us were good tacticians I'd say, and decent powergamers, but Ryan was gimped from the beginning by choosing to play a non-caster.

There was an early encounter against a golem, where all my PC did was cast haste. But after that I learned and started to use conjurations. (It was the first time I'd really played 3e.) That I take as further evidence of the tremendous power of casters in 3e D&D. Many problems can be solved by changing one's spell loadout. A non-caster otoh is stuck with their feat and skill selection.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Sounds to me like it was a matter of being the right person at just the right time with the right amount of good dice rolls.

The question is, does everyone get to be that right person a reasonable amount of the time, or is it casters only?

And I don't think the problem is confined to D&D. In most rpgs I've played, magic and other superhuman powers always beat muscle and skill, even if the characters are built on the same number of points. Exceptions are 4e, and Call of Cthulhu where magic has serious drawbacks.

 

[Libramarian]

So you had full knowledge of the creatures capabilities, were able to lure it out to the best advantage for you (I'm assuming outdoors where you could fly), you were buffed by the cleric to almost perfectly counter its energy effect and then prepared the best combination of spells to defeat the creature. I'm sorry but this corner case does not sound like a being overpowered issue to me.

It does sound pretty overpowered, but it also sounds hella fun.

 

[Steely_Dan]

His PC felt significantly underpowered, imo, compared to the two casters. All of us were good tacticians I'd say, and decent powergamers, but Ryan was gimped from the beginning by choosing to play a non-caster.

We didn't have that problem, the party composition at 13th level (3.5 campaign) was a fighter, psion, rogue and spirit shaman, the fighter and rogue never felt underpowered, both used to deal out some serious smack-down (high damage), aside from all the other ways to contribute to a campaign.

 

[pemerton]

Everyone's definition of "Shine" is different and I don't think a few posters here quite understand that.

Personally, I don't always expect or want to be in the spotlight. As long as I'm having fun then I don't care. A concept I have for my character maybe one in which the PC is rarely seen and rarely takes the stage.

OK. But this is a bit like saying "my PC concept is that s/he is weaker than all the rest". Maybe that's a viable concept, but perhaps it could be realised just by playing a lower level or lower stat PC.

Or, in 4e, it can be realised by playing a lazy warlord. The PC is weak, but the player has resources that s/he can still deploy at the table. The PC rarely takes the stage, but the player is still fully mechanically engaged with the game.

In every edition of D&D a PC has always had something that they can do. Unless you, the player, purposely stand there and do nothing you will always contribute to the group.

Now if there is a certain amount of things that I need to do in order to be considered useful then I would like those to be listed right now.

I have two young children - 3 and 6. Sometimes when I'm doing something around the house - cooking, say - they want to join in and help. And when they stir the batter for pancakes, or help dry the dishes, or whatever their contribution might be, it is a genuine contribution in the sense that it takes things forward.

But there is almost nothing they contribute that I couldn't do myself, more easily, more quickly, and with less effort than what it takes to make sure that they do it properly. (I have it on good information that about the time they get to an age where they can usefully contribute is also about the time they'll stop wanting to.)

To apply this to classes like the fighter or the rogue - it's not that there aren't things they genuinely can do. The rogue can genuinely open locks, for example. It's just that there is someone else - the wizard with a couple of scrolls of Knock and an Unseen Servant - who can do the same thing better, quicker, more reliably - and can do a lot of other stuff too!

I just want to post a little something that I feel the designers of 3rd edition/Pathfinder had intended for the games to turn out.

<snip>

This is how we handle games in our group. If a DM is going to propose a game then we talk amongst ourselves about who is going to play what class.

Maybe I'm missing something - but how is this an argument against the desirability of class balance? And how is it at all special to 3E? A 4e group, or AD&D group, or Rolemaster group, could build their party together in just the same way.

The question is, does everyone get to be that right person a reasonable amount of the time, or is it casters only?

Another way to phrase it is - who controls the space of options for right person, right time? In most fanatsy RPGs, that is the spellcasters, because they control the buffs that make you into the right person, and the operational effects (invis, fly, teleport etc) that make it into the right time.

This can work provided that it is always the fighter or rogue who needs to be buffed - so the spellcaster is the brains, the martial PC the brawn - but once you get to the point where self-buff is fully viable (as in Doug's example) the martial PCs have been crowded out. Both brain and brawn roles have become dominated by the spell using PCs.