Casters vs Mundanes in your experience

[Hussar]

No what this poll shows is that on EnWorld this is seen as an issue. I doubt you would get the same results if you posted it on say the Pathfinder Forums.

I'd take that bet in a heartbeat.

Pathfinder forums complain about caster issues just as much as anyone else.

Look, it's not like this is something that has sprung up new. Looking back at old high level AD&D modules you see it. In Queen of the Demonweb Pits, non-casters suffer a -2 penalty to all their magic weapons. That is the sum total of the effects going to the Abyss has on these characters.

Clerics? Cannot regain any spells higher than second level until very near the end of the module (and possibly not even then). Magic Users have a nerf list as long as your arm for spells and effects that don't work.

If there was parity between the classes, why would high level casters rate several pages of nerfs while the non-caster classes get a sentence?

Sure, I totally get that you are not having this issue. But, it's awfully dismissive to say that the issue is limited to a small number of people when it's something that has been brought up again and again and again throughout the entire history of the game.

You didn't have the issue. FANTASTIC. How did you do it? What can I do to replicate your results? I DON'T WANT to have this issue. You apparently fixed it. How? Can you give me any concrete solutions beyond "be nice to your other players"?

 

[Elf Witch]

I'd take that bet in a heartbeat.

Pathfinder forums complain about caster issues just as much as anyone else.

Look, it's not like this is something that has sprung up new. Looking back at old high level AD&D modules you see it. In Queen of the Demonweb Pits, non-casters suffer a -2 penalty to all their magic weapons. That is the sum total of the effects going to the Abyss has on these characters.

Clerics? Cannot regain any spells higher than second level until very near the end of the module (and possibly not even then). Magic Users have a nerf list as long as your arm for spells and effects that don't work.

If there was parity between the classes, why would high level casters rate several pages of nerfs while the non-caster classes get a sentence?

Sure, I totally get that you are not having this issue. But, it's awfully dismissive to say that the issue is limited to a small number of people when it's something that has been brought up again and again and again throughout the entire history of the game.

You didn't have the issue. FANTASTIC. How did you do it? What can I do to replicate your results? I DON'T WANT to have this issue. You apparently fixed it. How? Can you give me any concrete solutions beyond "be nice to your other players"?

I read the Pathfinder boards and yes the issue crops up but not to the extent that it crops up here.

Anyway polls on EnWorld are hardly scientific and do not represent the gaming community as a whole they represent the people who post on EnWorld.

Here are some of the concrete things I have done. I limit how many items the magic users can create. I also limit how many items I put into the game that give magic users the ability to cast more spells than their slots.

I have a mechanic for skill use that helps get rid of the even if I roll a one I can't fail. Magic users lose spells in combat a lot. I don't have the five foot step in my game.

I make sure the mundane characters have items that improve their ability to deal with invisible and flying creatures.

I plan encounters so that everyone can participate.

I make wizards do the bookkeeping required to make sure they actually have room in their spellbooks for all their spells. I enforce the spellcraft rules for adding new spells to spellbooks. And I have seen them fail this so they have to wait until they add another point into spellcraft to try again.

I make knowledge skills an important part of the game so wizards need to really consider how they use their skill points.

And it does help that my players are willing to share the spot light. Which means I have seen the magic users cast buff spells more on other party members than themselves.

I also have players who get involved with the world and game and role playing so things like that matter as much as how much damage did you do in combat.


My game worlds have areas where magic is null or acts chaotic. I don't always let my players rest and get all their spells back. I make use of creatures with spell resistance.

I balance it so sometimes it is the casters who are the reason the victory was won and sometimes it is the mundanes.

I let very few prestige classes in my game and I am a stickler for multiclassing if I feel the only reason someone wants to do it for the power boost and it does not fit their concept I say no.

I have never said that 3E magic does not need fixing it does. I just don't like the way 4E tried to fix it.

And I don't buy that the game is anything like Angel Summoner and BMX bandit. If that is what is going on then I have to say that it is plain that the mundanes have not bothered to build an actual character equipped to adventure but rather a lame duck that is a drain on party resources.

 

[Hussar]

I read the Pathfinder boards and yes the issue crops up but not to the extent that it crops up here.

Anyway polls on EnWorld are hardly scientific and do not represent the gaming community as a whole they represent the people who post on EnWorld.

So, it's not widespread... except when it is. And then we should just ignore it because it's not... what?

Taking your fixes in order:

Here are some of the concrete things I have done. I limit how many items the magic users can create. I also limit how many items I put into the game that give magic users the ability to cast more spells than their slots.

Not a bad way to go.

I have a mechanic for skill use that helps get rid of the even if I roll a one I can't fail. Magic users lose spells in combat a lot. I don't have the five foot step in my game.

Now, that's a VERY large change to the game. You've just removed tactical movement from combat to a large extent. Once you're in base to base combat, pretty much all movement will cease. Yeah, I can see how that would severely punish the casters.

I make sure the mundane characters have items that improve their ability to deal with invisible and flying creatures.

So, very high magic campaigns. How do you avoid the gp inflation of encounters?

I plan encounters so that everyone can participate.

I make wizards do the bookkeeping required to make sure they actually have room in their spellbooks for all their spells. I enforce the spellcraft rules for adding new spells to spellbooks. And I have seen them fail this so they have to wait until they add another point into spellcraft to try again.

So do I. This is one I've never seen have much effect. The DC is 15+1/spell level. Wizard maxes out his Spellcraft giving him a +8 at 1st level (presuming 18 Int - not an unfair presumption for a wizard) and there are some fairly easy ways to boost that (5 ranks in Kn Arcana gives +2 Synergy forex). That's pretty much a gimme most of the time.

I make knowledge skills an important part of the game so wizards need to really consider how they use their skill points.

Fair enough. Then again, a wizard generally has a surplus of skill points anyway, so, I've never really felt the pinch as a wizard. Cleric? Sure. I'd buy that. Wizard not so much.

And it does help that my players are willing to share the spot light. Which means I have seen the magic users cast buff spells more on other party members than themselves.

Of course you have. Wizards self buffing is a waste of time generally. Self-buffing is more the cleric's schtick.

I also have players who get involved with the world and game and role playing so things like that matter as much as how much damage did you do in combat.

Please. Let's not get into the passive aggressive thing about how my or your players are better "roleplayers". Trust me when I say that my group will roleplay every bit as well as yours.

My game worlds have areas where magic is null or acts chaotic. I don't always let my players rest and get all their spells back. I make use of creatures with spell resistance.

How often do magic null areas come up in play? Spell resistance is a joke as far as wizards are concerned. If the wizard is casting stuff where spell resistance is an issue, that wizard is not trying very hard.

I balance it so sometimes it is the casters who are the reason the victory was won and sometimes it is the mundanes.

I let very few prestige classes in my game and I am a stickler for multiclassing if I feel the only reason someone wants to do it for the power boost and it does not fit their concept I say no.

Well, considering that multiclassing for casters is generally a bad idea and most prestige classes actually limit caster powers, not enhance, I'd say this one is a wash.

I have never said that 3E magic does not need fixing it does. I just don't like the way 4E tried to fix it.

And I don't buy that the game is anything like Angel Summoner and BMX bandit. If that is what is going on then I have to say that it is plain that the mundanes have not bothered to build an actual character equipped to adventure but rather a lame duck that is a drain on party resources.

Fair enough. You accept that there is an issue, which is certianly a leg up on a lot of these discussions where many people will simply lay it on the players and not the system at all.

And, with the changes that you've made, I can see why you wouldn't run into Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit. Try running high level, by the book RAW only 3.5 D&D game some time using, say, a Paizo Adventure Path module and watch what happens.

 

[Dour-n-Taciturn]

Kudos to DMs that take on the challenge of wrangling in unwieldy spell casters and building in house rules to limit power gaming.

Null magic zones I always felt were a limited solution; first off, these render spells casters essentially useless, rather than simply outclassed, and secondly, all magic items cease to function, nerfing the entire party.

4E I feel, did alright, and even at higher levels, I don't see the same disparity between classes the more classic versions have. But in 4E, all characters are essentially spell casters, or at least not "mundane"; I suppose that homogeneity is not welcome to many, and so D&DNext...

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

You know, if I was play 3E-Pathfinder again, I'd take the approach of a gentle(wo)mens agreement to play nice. There is a lot of flavour I wouldn't want to whack from the spells with the nerf bat.

I'd also put in spell casting options for the non-spellcasters, fonts, teleport sites, flying mounts etc...

And I'd just houserule judiciously as players point out power disparities - generally by raising the mundanes up.

Where the nerf bat is raised I'd do it in-game, e.g. excessive stone-skins affect your looks, with warning enough to the players.

 

[Elf Witch]

So, it's not widespread... except when it is. And then we should just ignore it because it's not... what?

Taking your fixes in order:



Not a bad way to go.



Now, that's a VERY large change to the game. You've just removed tactical movement from combat to a large extent. Once you're in base to base combat, pretty much all movement will cease. Yeah, I can see how that would severely punish the casters.



So, very high magic campaigns. How do you avoid the gp inflation of encounters?



So do I. This is one I've never seen have much effect. The DC is 15+1/spell level. Wizard maxes out his Spellcraft giving him a +8 at 1st level (presuming 18 Int - not an unfair presumption for a wizard) and there are some fairly easy ways to boost that (5 ranks in Kn Arcana gives +2 Synergy forex). That's pretty much a gimme most of the time.



Fair enough. Then again, a wizard generally has a surplus of skill points anyway, so, I've never really felt the pinch as a wizard. Cleric? Sure. I'd buy that. Wizard not so much.



Of course you have. Wizards self buffing is a waste of time generally. Self-buffing is more the cleric's schtick.



Please. Let's not get into the passive aggressive thing about how my or your players are better "roleplayers". Trust me when I say that my group will roleplay every bit as well as yours.



How often do magic null areas come up in play? Spell resistance is a joke as far as wizards are concerned. If the wizard is casting stuff where spell resistance is an issue, that wizard is not trying very hard.



Well, considering that multiclassing for casters is generally a bad idea and most prestige classes actually limit caster powers, not enhance, I'd say this one is a wash.



Fair enough. You accept that there is an issue, which is certianly a leg up on a lot of these discussions where many people will simply lay it on the players and not the system at all.

And, with the changes that you've made, I can see why you wouldn't run into Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit. Try running high level, by the book RAW only 3.5 D&D game some time using, say, a Paizo Adventure Path module and watch what happens.

We stopped using the five foot step way back in 3.0. There is still movement you may have to use a round just disengaging to get out of melee. Combat Casting is used a lot more


In our games if you a roll a 1 on a skill check it is -10 a natural 20 is +10 that has really helped balance out I have max this out and I can't fail a roll.

So even if you have maxed spellcraft out roll a 1 and it more likely to be a failure. My wizard tried to add unseen servant to their spellbok I flubbed the roll twice it was not until the third time that I finally made it.

I should mention that we roll for our stats so there is no guarantee you are starting the game with an 18.

At high levels I tend to use a lot of lower level monsters mixed with higher level. I make use of monks and rogues and casters who specialize in dispelling. I try and plan things so that one spell from the wizard does not end the encounter.

If I can I try and have several lower encounters to use up resources before the major one.

I will say this higher level combat takes forever and not just because of the casters. Fighters are getting to swing more often and are doing some sick damage If you are not careful a fighter with greater cleave will cleave through half your mooks before stopping.

That is kind of funny most of my players who play wizards complain about not having enough skill points.

That was not meant to be a passive aggressive snark . I have seen people here complain that my character couldn't do much damage so as far as I am concerned then I was doing nothing kind of statement. I was simply saying that my players are very much into role playing and because of that if they had a great role playing opportunities that is of equal importance so if they didn't shine in combat this time but got to advance their character story or the story in general then they feel they had a good day at the game.

I am not saying that people who don't like the magic system are bad role players.

It comes into play every three or four sessions in this campaign because the land has been damaged by magic. It is far more likely for magic to be chaotic then completely null.

There are monsters that have both SR and DR use them wisely and the casters can't effect them easily it is up to the other PCs to deal with them while the casters deal with the things they can.

I also play my NPCs smart, not all I go on their wisdom and intelligence, so if they have good tactics they are not all bunched together waiting for the wizard's area spell to knock them all out.

The multiclassing rules are to stop certain combos that just rule the game.

My roommate runs Age of Worms by the RAW and we have hit 12 level I play a wizard and I am still waiting to outshine anyone else. Of course the one playing the rogue/shadow dancer/who knows what is a huge power gamer and he just runs all over the rest of us in combat and of course in dungeons while he scouts and we twiddle our thumbs.

I played a high level fighter in a KOK campaign all the way to epic levels it was 3.0 and had very few house rules. There were times I felt the paladin out shone me but I never felt that way about the wizard.

Again to be clear I am not saying that just because I have not experienced these issues others have not.

I like magic to be on the powerful side I hated what 4E did to it.

BTW I watched one episode of the cartoon it was all I could stomach and let me tell you if that if that what is going on in the game of some people no wonder they have issues. But I also think it is kind of an exaggeration fighter in 3.5 are not that weak and helpless.

 

[Hussar]

Which cartoon are you talking about Elf Witch?

 

[Elf Witch]

Which cartoon are you talking about Elf Witch?

Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit. I don't know why I called it a cartoon it is live action on you tube. I guess my brain is getting fried.

I am taking an official stance that having to find a place and move with less then six weeks to do it all really sucks.

 

[Neonchameleon]

As I've become a more open gamer in both tabletop and digital gaming I can't justify it anymore. I now believe that this balance can be achieved without removing the flavor and maintaining most of the creativity casters are accustomed to having. The issue seems to be one of compromise (compromise of an older perception) and perception of what is "balanced" as far as what casters are capable of. If I was going by the Tolkien series, then of course wizards would be some of the most power creatures to walk the planes. That's how they were. I can't remember wizards not being that strong (as far as how that series portrayed how strong wizards could be)

Oh, indeed. I grew up with powerful wizards like Gandalf. Who casts what? Six spells in the whole of Lord of the Rings? A 1E 5th leven wizard can manage that in one day. And Gandalf was, IIRC, statted as a 4th level druid in AD&D. Gandalf is strong, we both agree that. But he can't touch the raw magical power of a classic D&D wizard.

Here are some of the concrete things I have done. I limit how many items the magic users can create. I also limit how many items I put into the game that give magic users the ability to cast more spells than their slots.

I have a mechanic for skill use that helps get rid of the even if I roll a one I can't fail. Magic users lose spells in combat a lot. I don't have the five foot step in my game.

I make sure the mundane characters have items that improve their ability to deal with invisible and flying creatures.

All good things. Using DM time and houseruling to get past the problems with 3.X

I plan encounters so that everyone can participate.

Which means you're spending even more DM time forcing the game past the weaknesses of the spellcasters. I'm on the other hand regularly used to throwing away my notes as if I offer my PCs a labyrinth they are as likely to climb up and walk on top of the walls, looking down at the obstacles, as turn left or right. And this is where wizards really shine - not so much defeating the encounters as making them irrelevant.

I balance it so sometimes it is the casters who are the reason the victory was won and sometimes it is the mundanes.

And that worries me. I read a statement like that and understand that the DM decides in advance how the victory is going to be won. To me as a DM that's anathema. The players decide how they are going to win.

I have never said that 3E magic does not need fixing it does. I just don't like the way 4E tried to fix it.

This is fair enough. I'd recommend you give the Tome of Awesome a look. It seems to be geared to the game you want to play and is excellent reading in its own right.

At high levels I tend to use a lot of lower level monsters mixed with higher level. I make use of monks and rogues and casters who specialize in dispelling. I try and plan things so that one spell from the wizard does not end the encounter.

Monks I get. But why rogues? Reflex saves are generally the ones that wizards don't want to attack. And a spell that will end an encounter is Teleport.

There are monsters that have both SR and DR use them wisely and the casters can't effect them easily it is up to the other PCs to deal with them while the casters deal with the things they can.

SR is simply a pest for casters. Most of the conjuration school ignores it. And some of the spells (glitterdust, evard's black tentacles, and cloudkill spring to mind) are pretty debilitating.

BTW I watched one episode of the cartoon it was all I could stomach and let me tell you if that if that what is going on in the game of some people no wonder they have issues. But I also think it is kind of an exaggeration fighter in 3.5 are not that weak and helpless.

Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit is an exaggeration for comic effect. What's much more common is you get situations like:

"Frodo. You must take this ring to the Mountain of Doom and throw it in though you know not the way."
"No. But I know where it is. I'll study it on maps tonight before dinner. Between pre-breakfast and breakfast I'll prepare three Teleport spells. We leave after breakfast. And should be back in time for brunch."

"Drave. The drow are coming boiling up from that cave complex in three days."
"Earthquake, Earthquake, and Earthquake. Any of it left?"

"Felf. You can not help. These are dedicated mage slayers and immune to magic."
"A dozen of them? Evard's Black Tentacles to hold them in place, then Cloudkill." Spell resistance or immunity just prevent direct effects.

 

[Dour-n-Taciturn]

Ah but Mount Doom has an antimagic zone at its core, it's magma dismantles artifacts after all. The drow have Teleport too. And, the mage slayers all have belts of Freedom of Movement.

This is an example of the system mastery and the potency of magic and counter-magic; the -for-tat method of play that could either negate an encounter, or make it nigh impossible if unprepared.

Prepared casters always had their aforementioned set of magic bullet spells for just about every occasion; when potent spell casters were pit against each other, the caster that won initiative threw out their Time Stop combo and essentially won the encounter. Once you got 8th level spells, many of which had save-or-die effects and ignored SR, you could dictate the tide of combat. I don't care how groovy your super-smitey paladin or trip-monkey fighter was, they just could not make parity.