Casters vs Mundanes in your experience

[Steely_Dan]

Gandalf is strong, we both agree that. But he can't touch the raw magical power of a classic D&D wizard.

He can, what with being the angel/demigod servant of Manwe from Valinor, but the Istari (Maiar) do not manifest such vulgar displays of power while in their Middle-Earth ("mortal") forms.

Of course, trying to quantify LotR in D&D terms is basically futile.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

He can, what with being the angel/demigod servant of Manwe from Valinor, but the Istari (Maiar) do not manifest such vulgar displays of power while in their Middle-Earth ("mortal") forms.

So what you're saying is that basically, he works like how some folks in this thread suggest to deal with the Big Five to avoid problems: he's holding himself back.

 

[Steely_Dan]

So what you're saying is that basically, he works like how some folks in this thread suggest to deal with the Big Five to avoid problems: he's holding himself back.

I don't really pay that much attention to all that malarkey, I was just commenting on Gandalf's true power (origin) levels.

 

[Dour-n-Taciturn]

Gandalf held himself back because that is the nature of an Istari, magic without the sanction of the Valar, like the Ring itself, corrupts when overused. So Tolkien built in a "code of honor" that if violated would cause a wizard to fall into Shadow, much like Saruman did.

Conan's villainous sorcerers too were corrupt, they made bargains with eldritch beings who made them insane. The male channelers in the Wheel of Time would slowly go mad whenever they touched The Source (at least until Rand cleansed the male half...).

These are all built-in limitations set by the authors of each series, otherwise there would be no need for any other character other than a powerful wizard and there would be no plot or tension, since the endgame would be a foregone conclusion. Spell casting interruption, a very limited number or spell slots (or longer casting times), potential of spell failure, even a corruption mechanic similar to that in the d20 Starwars games, are crucial to balancing the power of wizards and their ilk.

 

[Elf Witch]

Oh, indeed. I grew up with powerful wizards like Gandalf. Who casts what? Six spells in the whole of Lord of the Rings? A 1E 5th leven wizard can manage that in one day. And Gandalf was, IIRC, statted as a 4th level druid in AD&D. Gandalf is strong, we both agree that. But he can't touch the raw magical power of a classic D&D wizard.



All good things. Using DM time and houseruling to get past the problems with 3.X



Which means you're spending even more DM time forcing the game past the weaknesses of the spellcasters. I'm on the other hand regularly used to throwing away my notes as if I offer my PCs a labyrinth they are as likely to climb up and walk on top of the walls, looking down at the obstacles, as turn left or right. And this is where wizards really shine - not so much defeating the encounters as making them irrelevant.



And that worries me. I read a statement like that and understand that the DM decides in advance how the victory is going to be won. To me as a DM that's anathema. The players decide how they are going to win.



This is fair enough. I'd recommend you give the Tome of Awesome a look. It seems to be geared to the game you want to play and is excellent reading in its own right.



Monks I get. But why rogues? Reflex saves are generally the ones that wizards don't want to attack. And a spell that will end an encounter is Teleport.



SR is simply a pest for casters. Most of the conjuration school ignores it. And some of the spells (glitterdust, evard's black tentacles, and cloudkill spring to mind) are pretty debilitating.



Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit is an exaggeration for comic effect. What's much more common is you get situations like:

"Frodo. You must take this ring to the Mountain of Doom and throw it in though you know not the way."
"No. But I know where it is. I'll study it on maps tonight before dinner. Between pre-breakfast and breakfast I'll prepare three Teleport spells. We leave after breakfast. And should be back in time for brunch."

"Drave. The drow are coming boiling up from that cave complex in three days."
"Earthquake, Earthquake, and Earthquake. Any of it left?"

"Felf. You can not help. These are dedicated mage slayers and immune to magic."
"A dozen of them? Evard's Black Tentacles to hold them in place, then Cloudkill." Spell resistance or immunity just prevent direct effects.

I can see how you could think that I was predetermining who and how they win but that is not what I am doing. I just plan the encounter to play to say mundane strengths and to exploit the weakness of the casters. And other times it is done the other way. Now players being players they will sometimes take me by surprise and in an encounter meant for the mundanes to shine the casters will be the ones to shine and vice versa.

Since rogues get evasion they can shrug off area spells they have a decent AC and hit points and they can move around that battlefield and get into a position to back stab the poor squishy casters not only that they have good use magic device and I use that so that they usually have a better dex so usually go before the casters so they can ready an action to trigger on the caster and use a wand to hit the caster with a spell to either counterspell or do enough damage to disrupt the spell. Also mist high level rogues have magic items that let them be invisible or spiderclimb. I have found many uses for them to ruin a casters day.

Lets hope Frodo has teleport without error or oops you just landed smack in the middle of Orcs or as others have said the area is magically protected from being able to teleport.

Now some people will say unfair and that is a cop out but it is both fair and not a cop out in a world with magic high level mages will have protections in place to stop other mages from using magic to get to their goodies.

And those mage killers who deal in killing mages because that is what they do know about evard black tentacles and have magic items that give them freedom of movement.

Again that is not cheating that is common sense. Or they can all be high level monks who have taken feats so they can't be grappled.

All of those examples can be disrupted with the right items, feats and spells.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Gandalf held himself back because that is the nature of an Istari, magic without the sanction of the Valar, like the Ring itself, corrupts when overused. So Tolkien built in a "code of honor" that if violated would cause a wizard to fall into Shadow, much like Saruman did.

Conan's villainous sorcerers too were corrupt, they made bargains with eldritch beings who made them insane. The male channelers in the Wheel of Time would slowly go mad whenever they touched The Source (at least until Rand cleansed the male half...).

These are all built-in limitations set by the authors of each series, otherwise there would be no need for any other character other than a powerful wizard and there would be no plot or tension, since the endgame would be a foregone conclusion. Spell casting interruption, a very limited number or spell slots (or longer casting times), potential of spell failure, even a corruption mechanic similar to that in the d20 Starwars games, are crucial to balancing the power of wizards and their ilk.

These are all fair points, but there are two major alternatives that you don't mention that let you balance the game without those kinds of restrictions.

First, one possibility for balancing magic to magic is to simply scale back the idea of what magic can do. If, for example, a wizard's most powerful fire-based attack spell is no more powerful than the swing of a fighter's sword, you don't need to restrict it at all. This kind of balancing is actually very common in my experience with videogames and the like, and is basically what 4E did to an extent (though it did a few other things too).

The other possibility is to simply improve the power of non-magical options to the point that they match the full breadth of magic's power. If fighters can jump so high they can grab a flying foe (regardless of altitude, even) and drag them to the ground in a punishing suplex, then giving wizards the ability to fly isn't exactly an unbalancing or game-distorting effect.

Of course, those two states are basically the same thing: balancing them by matching their options and potency, rather than making one more powerful than the other but giving it severe drawbacks to compensate. You really need one of those two approaches in order to make a traditional fantasy game or work of fiction function properly, and I've seen both.

 

[Dour-n-Taciturn]

If you scale back magic and/or allow fighters to do extraordinary things, you essentially (no pun intended) have something similar to what exists in 4th Ed.

 

[TwinBahamut]

If you scale back magic and/or allow fighters to do extraordinary things, you essentially (no pun intended) have something similar to what exists in 4th Ed.

Well... yeah. I think I just said as much. That's one of the things I like about 4E, or the 3E Tome of Battle, as another example.

 

[Dour-n-Taciturn]

You did, and I think if Tome of Battle was elevated just a bit more, or casters pulled back just a bit... Well you have something that still provides enough flavor to differentiate the classes whilst maintaining a fair amount of parity.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Ah but Mount Doom has an antimagic zone at its core, it's magma dismantles artifacts after all. The drow have Teleport too. And, the mage slayers all have belts of Freedom of Movement.

This is an example of the system mastery and the potency of magic and counter-magic; the -for-tat method of play that could either negate an encounter, or make it nigh impossible if unprepared.

And it continues with teleporting half a mile above Mount Doom (flying) with the Ring attached to a loaded distance arbalest. And then casting True Strike as you dive down to make sure you shoot the ring into the volcano.

He can, what with being the angel/demigod servant of Manwe from Valinor, but the Istari (Maiar) do not manifest such vulgar displays of power while in their Middle-Earth ("mortal") forms.

That and two quid will buy you a coffee. Now if D&D were to actually have negative consequences for casting spells (either CoC style sanity loss or WFRP style blowback) then there would be something in it. But for all practical purposes a fifth level wizard is more powerful than Gandalf because they have almost no limits.

You know, if I was play 3E-Pathfinder again, I'd take the approach of a gentle(wo)mens agreement to play nice. There is a lot of flavour I wouldn't want to whack from the spells with the nerf bat.

And this confuses me from a RP perspective. If my PC genuinely considers they are being threatened by an overwhelming force intent on something nasty and potentially apocalyptic, they aren't going to want to play nice.

Since rogues get evasion they can shrug off area spells

No they can't. They can shrug off anti-reflex spells like Fireball or Grease. Reflex spells are normally the least important ones. Sure they're protected from Fireball. But not even slightly protected from debilitating AoEs that attack Will like Glitterdust, ones that attack Fort like Stinking Cloud, or oddballs like Evard's Black Tentacles. All of which are AoE conjurations that ignore spell resitance and completely ruin the victim's day.

Trying to match defences against a high level wizard is like trying to play paper-scissors-stone. And not being allowed to change your choice for the second turn when your opponent can - plus having more tells than Rossini. (You've also eliminated the way of getting seriously high saves - excessive multiclassing).

Lets hope Frodo has teleport without error or oops you just landed smack in the middle of Orcs or as others have said the area is magically protected from being able to teleport.

OK. Let's test that idea. From books, Frodo can reach at least the Seen Casually level. That gives him an 88% chance of making the teleport accurately. However Frodo didn't prepare two teleports (one in, one out) but (as I explicitely mentioned) three. The orcs have a grand total of six seconds before Frodo simply teleports again. Can they kill Frodo in one round when they really weren't expecting him to be there? Unlikely. Frodo's chance of missing with both teleports (that includes mishaps that actually end in the right place) is 1.44% With any sort of scrying mirror so he can see where he's going, Frodo has a >94% chance of teleporting accurately. I don't think Frodo really needs Greater Teleport. Do you?

And those mage killers who deal in killing mages because that is what they do know about evard black tentacles and have magic items that give them freedom of movement.

How much loot do they carry? Because the problem facing the wizard is that Evard's Black Tentacles is not the only spell. Freedom of Movement does no more than Spell Resistance to stop Glitterdust or Stinking Cloud.

A Ring of Freedom of Movement (the sure defence against Evard's Black Tentacles - or Solid Fog which I can use to replace Evard's Tentacles to neutralise your monks for a few turns, whatever their saving throws) costs 40,000 GP. And it's not going to do a thing about the other three spells in my AoE arsenal.

You need a full spectrum of counters - I have more than one spell prepared.