D&D 5E I want a return to long duration spells in D&D Next.

[Incenjucar]

Sorry but no way: What's more work?

1: Having to sit there and check your sheet every round to add and take away buffs.

or

2: Maybe having to check your sheet every 10 rounds to see if your buff ends?

Does your group not say the rounds out loud as they come up? "Okay guys we are on round 2."

It's very very simple actually and can all be done with a sheet of notebook paper.

Write down your buffs.

1: Buff A "ends on round 5"
2: Buff B "ends on round 20"
3: Buff C "ends on round 60"
4: Buff D "ends on round 4"
5: etc......

Long term durations are a lot easier to keep up with than the "coming and going" buffs of 4th edition.

I'm sorry, I can't meaningfully argue with "Round 60."

What game are you playing that has 60 combat rounds? Use realistic examples, please.

And no, nobody calls out rounds. Why would you?

 

[FireLance]

Not sure why long term durations and problems with tracking are even mentioned. If you have a buff that lasts even 1 minute then tracking isn't a problem at all. That is 10 rounds of a buff that you don't have to worry about until 10 rounds later. Buffs in rounds are easy as well because everything is done in rounds anyway. You write your buffs on a separate sheet of paper and you right when they end.

If you want to talk about difficulties in tracking buffs then 4th edition is your worst nightmare. Having to to track multiple buffs that last only until the end of your next turn, or the beginning of your next turn etc can be a real headache.

It's a hell of a lot easier to be able to cast and spell and not have to worry about it for a while than 4th editions method. I can't tell you how many times he forgot about buffs and conditions and god knows what else.

The number of effects is a separate issue from the duration of the effect. Of course multiple effects are harder to track than a smaller number of effects, but this was not the original point raised.

For the same number of effects, effects that end at natural break points (until the end of the next extended rest, until the end of 1 or more short rests) are easier to track than effects that could end halfway through an encounter (e.g. 3 rounds). Effects that end after just one round are also marginally easier to track than effects that end after a small number of rounds, for the same reason that it is marginally easier to count to 1 than to count to 3.

Moderately longer effects (say, with durations of minutes or hours) work pretty much the same as effects that end at natural break points until it is almost time for the effect to run out. Then, the difficulty increases to the level of an effect that could end halfway through the encounter.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I'm sorry, I can't meaningfully argue with "Round 60."

What game are you playing that has 60 combat rounds? Use realistic examples, please.

And no, nobody calls out rounds. Why would you?

Maybe a 1 minute/level spell cast by a 6th level caster.

Rounds are six seconds so there are 10 rounds in a minute. A spell that lasts 6 minutes is going to be 60 rounds.

What is this nobody stuff? Plenty of people call out the rounds because spells and other effects are by round. When you get back to the top of the initiative then you start another round.

People complained about 4th editions combat taking so long because you had so many micro actions going on. Some of you have posted tips to help the combat go faster and say that combat was okay for you. Now when some of us talk about how making things easier for 3rd edition such as tracking buffs you look at us like we have grown a third head or something.

 

[FireLance]

I'm sorry, I can't meaningfully argue with "Round 60."

What game are you playing that has 60 combat rounds? Use realistic examples, please.

To be fair, a 6-minute duration is unlikely to come up in the encounter in which it is cast. It's only after you've overcome the encounter, searched the bodies, searched the room, walked carefully down the passageway searching for traps, and made your way to the next encounter that the question of whether or when your 6-minute effect has expired or will expire would come up.

 

[drothgery]

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that most spells had "until next turn" durations. There were plenty with "save ends" or with "Sustain: Minor".

Of which the only one I really thought was problematic was 'save ends' -- I know it's asymetric, but I'd have PC spells last either one round or the entire encounter, with 'save ends' only being a feature of spells cast on PCs. And pick one way to do 'one round', whether it's until the end of next turn or until the start of next turn or whatever (though probably until the end of next turn, because you probably want to do something with your one-round buff).

 

[DEFCON 1]

Now when some of us talk about how making things easier for 3rd edition such as tracking buffs you look at us like we have grown a third head or something.

I think the issue is just that some of us don't find tracking round/minute/hour/day buffs to be easier than 4E. I know we just used our little colored rings, people rolled saving throws at the ends of their turns, and everything ran smoothly.

The issue I personally have with minute per level and hour per level spells is that it necessitates more effort on the DMs part to try and specifically figure out how long the rest is... how long the body search is... how long the discussion about what happens next is... how long the walk to the next encounter point is, etc. To me, THAT'S the real confusion. If my players have a buff that was cast and lasts 6 minutes or 6 hours... trying to guesstimate how far along the party gets in the dungeon before it runs out is a pain in the butt. "Okay... you travel down this long, winding, underground passage that goes on for 3 miles. Let me go check and see just how fast a party in armor travels via walking and then calculate how long that 3 mile journey took, so we know how much time you have left on your Bull's Strength spell." Ugh. No thanks.

At least in 4E... I always knew when 'end of turn' occurred, or when the 'save ends' occurred, or when 'end of the encounter' occurred. There was no confusion. And tracking it was no more a pain than any other part of running the game, once we figured out the easiest and best way to do it.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I think the issue is just that some of us don't find tracking round/minute/hour/day buffs to be easier than 4E. I know we just used our little colored rings, people rolled saving throws at the ends of their turns, and everything ran smoothly.

The issue I personally have with minute per level and hour per level spells is that it necessitates more effort on the DMs part to try and specifically figure out how long the rest is... how long the body search is... how long the discussion about what happens next is... how long the walk to the next encounter point is, etc. To me, THAT'S the real confusion. If my players have a buff that was cast and lasts 6 minutes or 6 hours... trying to guesstimate how far along the party gets in the dungeon before it runs out is a pain in the butt. "Okay... you travel down this long, winding, underground passage that goes on for 3 miles. Let me go check and see just how fast a party in armor travels via walking and then calculate how long that 3 mile journey took, so we know how much time you have left on your Bull's Strength spell." Ugh. No thanks.

At least in 4E... I always knew when 'end of turn' occurred, or when the 'save ends' occurred, or when 'end of the encounter' occurred. There was no confusion. And tracking it was no more a pain than any other part of running the game, once we figured out the easiest and best way to do it.

Unless you were close to your destination, I believe normal travel time was done in hours. After 1 hour let's see who's buffs are still on, unless you hit a random encounter.

The problem with 4th edition was the fact that it has so much micro buffs, penalties, conditions etc that are all happening at various moments, for various reasons to the point where you don't know who was granted what, or who could move here, get a bonus there, use an immediate interrupt etc....

You had less to worry about in terms of tracking in 3rd edition than you did in 4th.

 

[slobster]

4th edition had fiddly little conditions that expired in one round, at the beginning of your next turn, save ends, and so on. It was a hassle to keep track of in combat, and I found that it yielded considerable drag and ennui at my gaming table.

3rd edition had a ridiculous number of long duration buffs that meant my group ended up using an excel spreadsheet to track which buffs were on them, how their bonuses interacted, and what their final stats ended up being. In combat it wasn't much of a bookkeeping burden (unless you count the fact that it seriously affected their power curve) but it added a lot of headaches when it came to duration tracking, statistic bloat, and of course the dreaded Dispel Magic.

I would like 5E to avoid the excesses of either system in favor of something tighter and more streamlined.

 

[concjo]

I think the issue is just that some of us don't find tracking round/minute/hour/day buffs to be easier than 4E. I know we just used our little colored rings, people rolled saving throws at the ends of their turns, and everything ran smoothly.

The issue I personally have with minute per level and hour per level spells is that it necessitates more effort on the DMs part to try and specifically figure out how long the rest is... how long the body search is... how long the discussion about what happens next is... how long the walk to the next encounter point is, etc. To me, THAT'S the real confusion. If my players have a buff that was cast and lasts 6 minutes or 6 hours... trying to guesstimate how far along the party gets in the dungeon before it runs out is a pain in the butt. "Okay... you travel down this long, winding, underground passage that goes on for 3 miles. Let me go check and see just how fast a party in armor travels via walking and then calculate how long that 3 mile journey took, so we know how much time you have left on your Bull's Strength spell." Ugh. No thanks.

At least in 4E... I always knew when 'end of turn' occurred, or when the 'save ends' occurred, or when 'end of the encounter' occurred. There was no confusion. And tracking it was no more a pain than any other part of running the game, once we figured out the easiest and best way to do it.

I understand where you're coming from, but how did you track it if your rogue was able to sneak up gather some info, then characters buff. Next round is useless, there's no combat. Was there something else in 4E that accomodated that?

 

[Kinak]

I would like 5E to avoid the excesses of either system in favor of something tighter and more streamlined.

Absolutely. Both had too much book-keeping, just for different reasons.

Cheers!
Kinak