D&D 5E 5E Can't Fail If It Focuses

[El Mahdi]

5th Edition can't fail if ...

I think it most certainly would fail if WotC went with any of this.

As it stands right now, I'm mostly optimistic and liking what I'm hearing from the design team.

I wouldn't even consider 5E if anything you posited here was part of it.

 

[Serendipity]

From a consumer standpoint, D&D only 'fails' if it fails to get me (or any other person) to buy it. If it followed the model you suggest, it would not be receiving my dollar. So that would be, microcosmicly, a failure.

 

[Tony Vargas]

5e isn't doomed. The open beta isn't even out yet.

It'll be less doomed after the beta, perhaps. :shrug:

As it stands now, it's goal is to re-unite a fan base divided along very simple grounds. Each side wants what they want, and the two are innately incompatible. There is very little space for compromise. The 3.5 holdouts have Pathfinder, they don't /need/ to compromise. The old-schoolers have their faded copies of 0D&D and AD&D 1&2, several retro-clones to choose from, and re-prints of AD&D on the way. They have no need to compromise. 4e fans have an edition of D&D that doesn't suck, so why should they compromise and accept sucky D&D again? Because WotC could C&D anyone who tries to support it, sure, but that would be a provocation for nerdrage far beyond anything WotC has ever perpetrated before - and they're not exactly inexperienced when it comes to provoking nerdrage.

No, the more I see of 5e and the reaction to 5e, the more convinced I become that it doesn't have a viable path to success.

 

[Nikmal]

And this is why 5e is doomed. It will fail if it sucks - which it will, if it caters to the 3.5 holdouts who rejected 4e. And, it will fail if it doesn't appeal to those same people.

5E will not be as successful as it possibly could be if it fails to bring in the players they lost! Right now D&D is the second best in sales to another role playing game company. In ALL the years previous to 4E this has NEVER happened before. 4E comes out and they fractured their fan base and lost over half of their fans. All in the name of trying to get new/er players in to their game. This was not necessarily a bad thing but in the long run it worked for some part but not as well as was originally hoped.

This game is not a video game, treating it like it is a video type of character where there is PvP and PvE type of mentality, where there needs to be balance across all the classes is what is part of the fracture (among other things too) that made it a mistake in my own opinion. I am NOT saying 4E is modeled after a video game per se but I think that trying to achieve balance is trying to become like one though. If I wanted that I would pay for that.

If WotC takes feedback seriously and actually listens to ALL of it's fan base and even the ones that were lost. I think that they may have good game once again. Right now as it stands I am a hold out and hope that they follow Paizo's example and make sure the fans have a say in how their game is written/played and developed. Ignore the fans and that will be a mistake.

I am one of those fans and as it stands right now, 4E does NOT cut it with the balancing act it is trying to pull off constantly.

 

[Tovec]

It'll be less doomed after the beta, perhaps. :shrug:

As it stands now, it's goal is to re-unite a fan base divided along very simple grounds.

My understanding was that they are trying to make a game everyone can enjoy, not that they are trying to recreate the exact same game that everyone enjoys. A slight but important difference. In one form they can never succeed because ALL systems are different. For the other, as far as I knew their ACTUAL goal, it is possible to allow me to play my way and for you to play your way with the same rules system. I won't get 3.5 ultra anymore than you will get 4e deluxe but if they do their jobs well we will both have a product we can enjoy.

Each side wants what they want, and the two are innately incompatible.

Why are they? I've heard it around these forums a lot from people who are much more knowledgeable than you and me, that our playstyles are much more similar than we would probably believe. Hell if the general consensus on the blog posts about design are believed then they are damn near identical.

There is very little space for compromise. The 3.5 holdouts have Pathfinder, they don't /need/ to compromise. The old-schoolers have their faded copies of 0D&D and AD&D 1&2, several retro-clones to choose from, and re-prints of AD&D on the way. They have no need to compromise.

Saying that 3ers, 1ers and 2ers all have their system, while implying that 4e wouldn't if 5e happens, is ridiculously false. 4e can still play their game after 5e comes out as much as 3e can play it since 4e. WotC introducing 5e doesn't miraculously teleport books out of your hands.

4e fans have an edition of D&D that doesn't suck, so why should they compromise and accept sucky D&D again?

This part is just laughable.

First, doesn't suck is debatable. HUGELY debatable in fact.
Second, "sucky D&D" is also hugely debatable.
Next, why should they accept something that isn't 4e? AT LEAST because they can't get WotC to change their mind about doing 5e. Trust me if it were possible, the sheer outcry of 3e fans would have stopped 4e. I was there, I remember being part of that outcry I assume something similar happened from 2e fans for 3e, but I can't be certain.
Fourth, welcome to the club. The club of people who aren't exactly thrilled about WotC's most recent choices concerning their favourite* RPG.

Because WotC could C&D anyone who tries to support it, sure, but that would be a provocation for nerdrage far beyond anything WotC has ever perpetrated before - and they're not exactly inexperienced when it comes to provoking nerdrage.

No they are not. In fact from time to time I think they provoke nerdrage for fun.
(EDIT: Cease and Desist. Right? Still doesn't make any more sense to me so I'll let my comment stand.)
EDIT: They may C+D anything new people try to publish if they try doing a Pathfinder style alternate route. That is true. But regardless of PF's existence I would not have switched to 4e so I fail to see the point.

No, the more I see of 5e and the reaction to 5e, the more convinced I become that it doesn't have a viable path to success.

Once again, its viable path is by letting people play the game they want to play using 5e, while letting other groups play a completely different game using those same rules.
At the very least some people will convert because WotC is still supporting 5e (up until 6e is released). I know that if I can PLAY the game I want I really couldn't care less what the base rules look like. I know certain things that are turn offs for me and mine because 4e did it but those are very possibly things that you LOVE about 4e, who knows. Either way 4e is going to fade away like 3e faded away 4 or 5 years ago. That isn't to say you can't still play it. It IS to say that WotC will stop releasing books for it.

You have to understand Tony, not everyone loves 4e like you seem to. We don't all think it is the benevolent holy creation you seem to and to that end we are happy to see it go in favour of something we do appreciate. That new incarnation will not resemble 4e** nor will it be 3e or any other "e" that came before it. It will be something new, it will have to live or die on that new entity. Saying it has failed before the beta test is revealed is premature to say the least. It could be exactly what they claim, a game that unites you and me into something new. It also has the chance of being something neither of us like and being changed by the time it is released. Perhaps it will be something neither of us likes and it won't be changed. Who knows. I just know that saying it can't succeed before it even tries reeks of sour grapes.

*"Favourite" might be debatable nowadays.
**If it does then, as previous mentioned, it really will fail.

 

[ren1999]

This thread wasn't intended to compare 4th edition with 3rd edition or compare what you want in the game with what I want in the game.

This thread started with what I want out of the game and I was hoping you would tell me what you want out of the game -- not, "I will never play your game." That's fine. I'm not getting paid to design this game. I am not the decider of this game. We all are.

So I'll rephrase the Title: "What do you want 5th Edition to be?" We've got just a few days before play testing begins.

I really like the idea of using ability scores as defenses instead of having Fort, Ref, and Will. I'm really happy to hear they'll be trying this.

I don't think we should ditch the modifiers to attacks and defenses based on class level and ability scores.

Blah, blah. We all have the ear of the developers here. I know it. Please don't direct me to another thread. Tell me why you don't want level limits. Tell me why you don't want a simplified Difficulty Class table. Etc..

Thanks for responding, but I'd like to know why you like or don't like these ideas -- not a response intended to irritate me because you think I'm getting paid for this. Speak your thoughts about the game.

 

[slobster]

Hmm. What do I want out of the game, huh?

I want character classes to be balanced through all levels of play, meaning that every one is able to meaningfully contribute in all "pillars" of play when considered over the course of an adventure or game session. This doesn't mean that every character must be equally good at every pillar, but they should have something interesting to do in each one that actually helps achieve a desirable outcome for the party as a whole.

I want classes to play differently. Fighters hit stuff and don't go down. Wizards need to prepare spells ahead of time and are fragile if caught with their pants down. Monks are mobile and fast to attack. Warlocks can cast all day and really punish enemies that earn their special ire.

I want combat to be smooth, without the need to flip open rulebooks to consult long condition lists or powers or rules for grappling. I don't want to be forced to track a dozen little bonuses and debuffs that end and reactivate every round. I want my battlemat, but I respect that others feel quite strongly about playing without it, so I really hope that is a viable option as well.

I want the skill resolution system to get as much attention as the combat rules. I'd like to see rules such that the much hated "skill challenge" system isn't necessary. It was largely hated because it imposed an artificial structure from the top down. I'd hope that the skill resolution rules can be built such that an analagous way of resolving complex situations out-of-combat evolves from the bottom-up without ever needing to be explicitly stated in the rules.

I want preparing for a session to be as simple as possible. Monster creation needs to be fast and based on good game design, not pseudo-simulationist math homework. Monsters should work differently than PCs, with optional rules in place to reconcile the two for those who are gluttons for such punishment .

And of course, each copy should be individually blessed and signed by the honored Undying soul of Gary Gygax, and shipped with a copy of Diablo 3 with PvP enabled and the online authentication disabled so that I can play off-line or with my friends on a LAN. The game should end edition wars forever and usher in a new golden era where even White Wolf fans and those people who are always prattling on about how FATE is so innovative agree that D&D really just owns their faces. And it should be open source and cost 2$ for a .pdf.

And they should print an Eberron book every month for it.

That's all I want, really.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

So I'll rephrase the Title: "What do you want 5th Edition to be?" We've got just a few days before play testing begins.

AC as Dex+Armor+mods
Hit bonus as positive
Saving throws not saving defenses.
Lots and lots and lots of building options. Hundreds of themes and backgrounds, thousands of feats- but just as many "default builds" to just pick theme and background and run in 15 minutes.
Mostly Vancing Spellcasting with some small "do all day powers," at-will if you want to use that terminology, to be able to be magical all day.
Fighters have all sorts of special stuff they can do.
Monks that kick butt.
Gridless combat as primary approach.
GM adjucations - the GM sets the scene, you describe your actions, GM tells you which attribute to roll (or skill) i.e the rules do not tell you exactly what happens the GM does (pre-third as it were).
Balanced by adventure, not encounter.
Thinking a way out of fight with tactics or avoidence is the best solution to the problem, you only fight when you have to (and a less focused role on combat than has been seen previously)
Multiclassing that works (and is as flexible as 3.x - but without the problems)
Modifiers from Stats work as they have in 3rd - but a limit on how high an ability can go - 25 (the classic 1st ed cap).
Epic level rules, or the game is structured that if you never want to stop playing a character, and advancing levels, you never have too - you can play one character for a decade and get to level 100 or something. In other words no Hard Stop of character advancement.

And whatever new innovation comes up.

Basically the bits I liked about all editions all thrown together.

That is what I would like.. for me - whether it would sell - who knows?

I don't care if most of that were in one module or another, but if I can configure the game to the way I like, I'll be a happy camper.

 

[Nikmal]

I would love to think that the developers are watching/reading this but evidence shows that they do not really pay attention to that and at this point with the beta coming out soon the rules that they have in place will not be changed much... in the past that is what I have learned about WotC and their customer service, it is not that good.

But on the off chance that they "might" listen I will say what I want.
-I want a system that does not see balance throughout the classes.
-Does not have to be equal across the board.
-Does not try and mimic a computer role playing game.
-A system not dumbed down to make it "simpler" for younger people and admit that younger people are smarter then they think.
-Listen to their fans this time around and actually input some of their ideas instead of writing them off as they are famous for over the last 12 years now.
-STOP trying to release so MANY books... make us want more and accept that they will not come out every two months (hard covers) but maybe 2-3 (maybe a chance of 4 times a year) STOP the rules glut!
-Playtest, playtest, playtest and actually LISTEN to the fans and make changes according to the feedback.
-Do not try and redo 4E and expect the fractured fans that WotC lost when 4E came out.


(can't think of more at the moment but I know that there will be more to come.)

 

[ren1999]

Hmm. What do I want out of the game, huh?
And of course, each copy should be individually blessed and signed by the honored Undying soul of Gary Gygax

I heard there is a 5th edition ritual for that.

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